The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    I wouldn't rate it because I've never used it. What I am doing here is helping out with a method that I've devoted 6 years of study to. To evaluate David's methods would be disingenuous, dig? But I will check it out, sure there is good stuff there

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    All this talk about outlining changes and not thinking melodically might cause me to post how I currently learn changes... away from the guitar and not driven exclusively by the mental maths of theory. Now, there is theory involved, but the ear is in the driver's seat.

    For instance on a blues, Bruce has told me to set a drone on C and sing the following:

    C7: Do Tay (1-b7)

    F7: Fa May (4-b3)

    G7: So Fa (5-4)

    You can replace the F7 with sub changes, like a bIIdom7 or a bVIdom7.

  4. #28

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    want a good ear trainer/awakener?

    loop a short and not too involved guitar run/pattern..keep it very simple..

    now play the exact pattern over it .. but moving through all the chromatic intervals .one at time …from octave below to above..amazing how things line up..or don't…but even the "out" can be interesting

    cheers

  5. #29

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    Just a fun aside, learning this really helped my interval recognition:

  6. #30
    Oh, that reminds me, really quick.

    I am not bashing other methods, but...

    55bar,

    Bruce's method is NOT (I have to figure out why the bold and italic functions are messing up my posts...any ideas? I am not yelling, just stressing a point, btw ) an interval method.

    What does that mean for you, 55bar and others who are trying this method...

    I'll exemplify with the One Note Ear Training Series:

    You hear a I IV V I in Cmajor

    Then you hear a B natural

    ...your inclination in other ear training methods is to resolve that B to a C. In other ear training methods, this is how it is taught, it's a 7-8 resolution that is very important to most music. So I am not knocking it...

    HOWEVER, in Bruce's method, you should NEVER resolve notes (not yelling, I hate technology. Stressing points that should be in bold or italicized).

    ...So, in Bruce's method, you hear the B natural immediately as a major 7th in the key and NOTHING else. The same goes for the F# (b5 in the key) and the C#/Db (b2 in the key). DO NOT RESOLVE these notes. They have to be memorized on your own.

    Why? Well, the 7th might "resolve" down to the b7, or it might jump to the 4th in a melodic line. The b5 might move to the 7th instead of resting on the natural 5. And the b2 might be heard as part of an altered dominant line that doesn't immediately resolve to the Root. These are just some examples.

    The most difficult part of Bruce's series is putting old methods to the side (but not forgetting them) and focusing just on the sound. This becomes extremely apparent in the Two Note series.

    DO NOT RESOLVE, and DO NOT RELATE THE NOTES TO EACH OTHER (not yelling, shesh, can someone help me out with the font function ) Just hear the notes in a key center. That's not how Bruce's method works.

    Does Bruce's method make you just play modally? Nope, but modulations come into play in the Two Note Series. Don't rush, because you want to be able to have the ability to hold on to Key, aurally, for a while, before you train your ear to modulate. You will find that most jazz standards are more key centered than you'd thought in the past after studying Bruce's method. Real, legit, modulation happens more often in classical music. In jazz, I find that it is more about tonicization than modulation. Even a blues, even Joy Spring, and... this is where I will get the most disagreement... even Giant Steps (keep the original tempo in mind).

    Sorry for the ALL CAPS fiasco. Hope this was helpful for those of you that got started on Bruce's method.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-06-2015 at 06:16 AM.

  7. #31

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    Hey man, I get it, it was "just a fun aside" I'm working VERY hard on all the above, I'll try not to de rail Bruce methods in future.

    Ps I'm totally blown away by all this so thanks

  8. #32
    No, I didn't think that at all. And there is nothing wrong with the interval method. But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up. I am saying this from my personal challenges with Bruce's method. I had the habit to follow resolution tendencies and it cost me months of wasted practice because I wasn't being honest about how I was locating the pitches. This is especially important when you start singing the Contextual Ear Training exercises.

    I'm all glad you are getting something out of the journal I will continue to help as long as people want and as long as Bruce says this thread is kosher. And I will continue to post my own struggles and journal my own progress with the method as well, as long as it doesn't annoy anyone else on the forum. I already promised to keep all my ear training mutterings to this thread and this thread only
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-06-2015 at 08:39 PM.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    No, I didn't think that at all. And there is nothing wrong with the interval method. But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up. I am saying this from my personal challenges with Bruce's method. I had the habit to follow resolution tendencies and it cost me months of wasted practice because I wasn't being honest about how I was locating the pitches. This is especially important when you start singing the Contextual Ear Training exercises.

    I'm all glad you are getting something out of the journal I will continue to help as long as people want and as long as Bruce says this thread is kosher. And I will continue to post my own struggles and journal my own progress with the method as well, as long as it doesn't annoy anyone else on the forum. I already promised to keep all my ear training mutterings to this thread and this thread only
    Hey,

    So here is where I am at, I've been doing the one note exercises every day (up to 4-5 times) I started on level one I've now progresses to level 2.

    Here's what I'm finding, some pitches I can just hear like a 6th against the key BUT what I'm hearing is it resolving up to the tonic again NOT just hearing a 6th.

    Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?

  10. #34
    "Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?"

    1. You are already aware that this is an issue. I didn't realize it was and wasted 4 months going about ear training with Bruce's material using resolution tendencies.

    2. Respond as quickly as possible. Stop the pathway of "this sounds like a plagal ca..." right in it's tracks. You hear the note, and the next millisecond you guess the note. At the snap of a finger, right after you hear the note. Without question.

    You are in the process of disabling pathways that work great for analyzing music for listening, but don't work well (and this is truth) for performing music in the moment.

    Hear it. Say it. That quick. No delay. Bam, like Emeril Lagasse. Not, let's add more olive oil, like Linda Bastianich. You dig?

    This is harder to do with singing, but you can train the pathway in your brain to access it.

    This is what sets Bruce apart from other teachers, he has devoted a TON of study into the way the brain processes and creates sound. He is extremely bright. He devotes much of his time to creating new material and responding back to emails.

    He could just make money off of his laurels, but for Bruce, the teaching is much more rewarding. I know him, I studied with him, I've done things that should have gotten him to slam the door in my face. He wants to help people along on their individual journeys as musicians. I consider him to be a Shaman of music in the same respect I consider Barry Harris to be a Shaman of music


  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    "Again I'm also hearing a 4th as a plagal resolution not just a 4th in the key.

    How do I begin to hear pitches without my ear wanting to resolve a tension to a resolution?"

    1. You are already aware that this is an issue. I didn't realize it was and wasted 4 months going about ear training with Bruce's material using resolution tendencies.

    2. Respond as quickly as possible. Stop the pathway of "this sounds like a plagal ca..." right in it's tracks. You hear the note, and the next millisecond you guess the note. At the snap of a finger, right after you hear the note. Without question.

    You are in the process of disabling pathways that work great for analyzing music for listening, but don't work well (and this is truth) for performing music in the moment.

    Hear it. Say it. That quick. No delay. Bam, like Emeril Lagasse. Not, let's add more olive oil, like Linda Bastianich. You dig?

    This is harder to do with singing, but you can train the pathway in your brain to access it.

    This is what sets Bruce apart from other teachers, he has devoted a TON of study into the way the brain processes and creates sound. He is extremely bright. He devotes much of his time to creating new material and responding back to emails.

    He could just make money off of his laurels, but for Bruce, the teaching is much more rewarding. I know him, I studied with him, I've done things that should have gotten him to slam the door in my face. He wants to help people along on their individual journeys as musicians. I consider him to be a Shaman of music in the same respect I consider Barry Harris to be a Shaman of music

    Thanks man, I suppose I just need to keep doing it until it gets quicker. Strangely when I just say it in instinct I'm getting things like b3 and b7 mixed up! What's all that about?

    Sometimes I get 10/10 correct other times pitches I usually ace evade me! One thing though it's a great way to meditate, as you really have to focus.

    I have already noticed a difference in the way I hear music, but it's just not in focus yet, the longer and harder I work the music gets clearer I'm hoping for HD in a few years!!

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Thanks man, I suppose I just need to keep doing it until it gets quicker. Strangely when I just say it in instinct I'm getting things like b3 and b7 mixed up! What's all that about?

    Sometimes I get 10/10 correct other times pitches I usually ace evade me! One thing though it's a great way to meditate, as you really have to focus.

    I have already noticed a difference in the way I hear music, but it's just not in focus yet, the longer and harder I work the music gets clearer I'm hoping for HD in a few years!!
    I think I must have 'trained my ears' by transcribing solos, as I don't have much trouble recognising notes. Bear in mind this was in the days before computers and slowdown software. I remember working out a Wes Montgomery solo on a rather muddy live recording (Live at Jorgies) just using a reel-to-reel tape deck, just repeatedly stopping and starting the tape at the same spot until I got the note. After a few weeks of doing this, your ears can recognise anything!

    Last night I was working out the changes to a Wayne Shorter tune 'Lost' (from the LP 'The Soothsayer'). This has some quite weird changes, but I got them eventually. I largely relied on getting the roots from the bass, then relying on my ears telling me what sounded right for the rest of the harmony.

    So as you say, I think it's a case of doing this stuff until your ears 'get it'.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think I must have 'trained my ears' by transcribing solos, as I don't have much trouble recognising notes. Bear in mind this was in the days before computers and slowdown software. I remember working out a Wes Montgomery solo on a rather muddy live recording (Live at Jorgies) just using a reel-to-reel tape deck, just repeatedly stopping and starting the tape at the same spot until I got the note. After a few weeks of doing this, your ears can recognise anything!

    Last night I was working out the changes to a Wayne Shorter tune 'Lost' (from the LP 'The Soothsayer'). This has some quite weird changes, but I got them eventually. I largely relied on getting the roots from the bass, then relying on my ears telling me what sounded right for the rest of the harmony.

    So as you say, I think it's a case of doing this stuff until your ears 'get it'.
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!
    Well I always did it with the guitar in hand, in order to check the note, but eventually I found that my ears were getting it right straight away most of the time, so I guess I relied on the guitar less and less. In fact I didn't actually write that Wes solo down, it was too long, I memorised it.

    Maybe another factor is that I started classical guitar lessons when I was 12, so I had quite early exposure to fairly complex Bach pieces etc. Then as a teenager I spent a few years learning Jimi Hendrix solos off records purely by ear. By the time I got into jazz in my early 20s, I guess my ear training had already developed some way without me realising it.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    But if you wanna learn the Bruce Arnold method, then the interval method will get in the way and trip you up.
    i mentioned this in another thread, and i don't mean any disrespect

    but this is definitely NOT the Bruce Arnold Method. Arnold got all this stuff from Charlie Banacos (along with all his approach note stuff).

    Bruce is a good guy, and he obviously put a lot of work into his books. but he even says in the intro to some of his ear training books that he got it from Banacos. it's not "his" method.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    The mistake I think I made was using a guitar to transcribe solos, I've literally done hundreds but my ears minus the guitar are weak!
    I don't think it's a mistake per se - just a different exercise, you probably learned a ton about the guitar.

    But I realised a few years ago after learning (and forgetting!) stuff on the guitar that I didn't have a very good memory for phrases away from the instrument. So I ended up transcribing things incorrectly.

    Elsewhere on the forums there is a discussion about what the best way of practising is. Some work on exercises, while others work on music. I kind of see-saw between the two, but right now I'm getting back into the music side of it.

    I do think that working on music (learning a song or solo) can make it easier to 'cheat' - whatever it takes to get to the goal. An exercise on the other hand (if well designed) forces you to confront a weakness directly and develop more ability in a certain area. That said, transcribing away from your instrument seems to me to be a very sound practice activity.

    If you want to train your ears you have to have a strong understanding of music away from the instrument. There are quite a few ways of doing this - one is to be a multi-instrumentalist!

  17. #41
    but this is definitely NOT the Bruce Arnold Method. Arnold got all this stuff from Charlie Banacos (along with all his approach note stuff).

    Yes, he is pretty clear about that. I call it the Bruce Method because that's who I learned it from. Bruce also studied with Bergonzi and a classical pianist as well. He is a good guy, or he wouldn't have allowed me to continue my studies... let's just say I was stupid in the past

    In terms of getting
    b3 and b7 mixed up... I had the same problem. Bruce said that it could be a multitude of problems. It could be a problem hearing the minor tonality. It could be a problem with your ear holding onto a key center (this is actually harder than it sounds). It could be that certain octaves trick your ear into hearing a different sound.

    You just gotta stick with it and listen...over...and over... and over... again

    Keep your listening sessions no longer than 15 minutes, as mind/ear fatigue starts to set in and you won't retain anything. The way you practice is by increasing the number of times you practice, not by increasing the amount of time you practice the material. Does that make sense?

  18. #42

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    Sharing a simple contextual ear exercise:

    Pick an interval:

    Ex. ma3

    Play or sing it against a bass note progressing through chromatic cycle 4

    C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G

    in all 12 different relationships to the fundamental bass note

    Starting with:

    C E > C

    G B > C

    D F# > C

    Eb G > C

    Bb D > C

    E G# > C

    Ab C > C

    F A > C

    Gb Bb > C

    B D# > C

    Db F > C

    A C# > C

    Each relationship with the bass note is indicative of several possible larger harmonic structures.
    Ex. G B > C can be Cma7 or CmMa7 or G/C or Am9 or Fma9#11 or D13sus etc.
    Try to hear each relationship in several contexts.

    Do the same with all the other intervals (probably not on the same day).

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Sharing a simple contextual ear exercise:

    Pick an interval:

    Ex. ma3

    Play or sing it against a bass note progressing through chromatic cycle 4

    C F Bb Eb Ab Db F# B E A D G

    in all 12 different relationships to the fundamental bass note

    Starting with:

    C E > C

    G B > C

    D F# > C

    Eb G > C

    Bb D > C

    E G# > C

    Ab C > C

    F A > C

    Gb Bb > C

    B D# > C

    Db F > C

    A C# > C

    Each relationship with the bass note is indicative of several possible larger harmonic structures.
    Ex. G B > C can be Cma7 or CmMa7 or G/C or Am9 or Fma9#11 or D13sus etc.
    Try to hear each relationship in several contexts.

    Do the same with all the other intervals (probably not on the same day).
    Reminded me of this..... Incredible



    Go to 2:50 onwards to hear I'm singing in harmony over giant steps
    Last edited by 55bar; 10-08-2015 at 12:37 PM.

  20. #44

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    Insightful comment; "The only reason why you can sing the blues and not Giant Steps is because you've done it a lot".
    Raul Midon is an incredible musician.

  21. #45
    Yupe, but the key with that exercise is not to modulate. You gotta hear it all in C, and that, for people used to interval methods, is hard to hear.

    C E > C is easy enough

    how about F# A# > C

    That's Say (b5) Tay (b5) in Cmajor

    or E G# > C

    that's Me (3) Si (#5)

    You gotta maintain that C pedal. Right now I am widening the space between pedal point hits. I will set a pedal drone every 4 or 8 measures to test if I can really hold on to the key center with all of the outside notes orbiting the pedal point and key center.

    I think many people misunderstood what I meant by playing key centers, and it really irked me. But that's why I keep it to the journal here.

    One more note, about other methods. The goal for performance ear training is to find a method where you can hear melody, harmony, and rhythm all in your head and duplicate it instantaneously on your instrument. If you can't get to this point with the method you are studying, find something else to get you there.

    Interval training, while great, trains you to analyze music in micro pieces instead performing music as a whole entity. Training your ear by singing along to solos is great, and I do this all the time. However, big however, the method looses it's power if you can't locate those pitches immediately on a piano or guitar.

    What I am discussing in this journal, for clarifying purposes, is not a method used to transcribe music at one's own pace. My ruminations here are about using ear training on the band stand, hence me posting this journal to the "bandstand" part of the forum.

    Thus, the ear training method must stress the immediacy of the response and the immediacy of the aural information. You have to hear it and play it immediately, even for this Bruce Arnold/ Charlie Banacos and company stuff (Bruce takes Charlie's stuff and continues to go further with it). Music is immediate on the band stand, especially when playing with a band. There is no time to go "I think I hear a major 3" because that moment is gone. Does all that make sense?

  22. #46
    I've actually tried singing Giant Steps to internalize the sound of the song. This is how I learn tunes now. It is totally separate from the instrument AND it give you the most freedom on your instrument.

    However... I disagree with Raul's explanation as it is off with his performance

    Stick with me here...

    I have hunch, because Raul is ridonkulous and can see sound that he is trying to relate what he is doing to "what we are supposed to think with theory"

    Still with me here? I am not discrediting Raul, as I have heard him on various recordings. He is a BEAST of a musician, and I don't take the M word lightly.

    However, his explanation of Giant Steps in 3 keys is the typical theory explanation. Yes it is written that way...


    ...But, it doesn't sound like that...


    Many of you might be hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button right now. Wait a bit longer


    Giant Steps is in one key, and one key only... B major.


    Blasphemy, this guy doesn't know what he is talking about! Tear down the thread, you say. Stop the presses, you say.


    ...Let me finish


    Look at the tempo Giant Steps is played at, usually. 200bpm is slow for this song. People play it around 280 to 300 bpm (I can't play it that quick, makes my heart skip a beat just thinking of that tempo)

    ...hmmm... So, here's the point where I bust down another myth in most jazz

    ...Modulations don't exist in most jazz

    What?

    If we use the well developed ear to define modulations, they will locate an entirely new key shift that is thoroughly stated with repetition of harmonic and melodic structures (even in modal forms). This happens in... classical music. Why? Because classical pieces are longer than the standard jazz form. They have the space to modulate.

    I propose that jazz and standards work on a home key by tonicization. The references to new key centers are brief. In Giant Steps the references are extremely brief. Even in Have You Met Miss Jones, I argue those "modulations" are tonicizations. Even "So What".

    What does that mean?

    For some of us that will mean never listening to my ruminations on the thread again I joke, but if that's the case, that's fine. This is my take.

    For me, it means practicing Giant Steps in the Key of B with B being my drone or pedal point for reference. Should I go further, or is this idea to radical? Not belittling here, but my ideas might be too much in conflict with what many of us learned in music school. So I understand if people will be PO'ed by the concept I got from Bruce Arnold.

    But why? Who am I to tear down this notion that jazz is complex because of modulations. Who did I play with? Where are my credentials? Where is my album? How dare I?

    Simple. I am a reckless human being...

    No, that's not it.

    I like over complicating things...

    No, that's not it either.

    I can't play chord changes?

    Nope. I sell myself short a lot, but I can play changes. That's not it either.

    THEN WHY, DAG NAMMIT, YOUR POST IS ALREADY TOO LONG, JUST SAY IT!

    Okay, okay. This method of rethinking of Jazz in home keys where tonicizations orbit around the home key help you solo...

    ?

    They help you solo by adding a melodic cohesion to everything you play. You are playing a tune, not a random set of changes, right? You can think in larger chunks and more compositionally this way as well. You can develop your solo instead of playing separate lines. You can... tell a story (there it is again )

    Don't knock it until you try it
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-08-2015 at 06:26 PM.

  23. #47

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    But the fun part of STEPS is following the changes!

    It's a very catchy melody though. I always giggle when people who can't play it say it sounds "like an exercise."

    Yeah, an exercise you can whistle all day!

  24. #48
    I will do another "pod cast" on singing through Giant Steps. Did you guys enjoy my last pod cast on "rhythmic cadence & phraseology"? They aren't terribly hard to record, but I have to make sure no one is home to do them. If you all like them, I will continue.

    I feel like many of you will be pissed with my post on Giant Steps, so recording the pod cast thingy would give some credibility and application to the concept.


    Yes?

    No?

  25. #49

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    Piss people off, it's good for them.

  26. #50
    Well, if we ever start a rhythm thread (WHY THE HECK NOT!) My first post would be on analyzing Silento's "Watch Me" from a rhythmic perspective to glean the postives from contemporary hip hop pop. Then I would dissect the beats that my students make on their desks with their pens and fists. That would piss people off. But, see, you's and me would be the only people that know bout that cause we's learn up the children good

    But, I would do the analysis with utmost care. Cause there actually is valuable material in that stuff. That would piss people off more....

    Oh, don't you dare bring hip hop into my jazz. Guess what, hip hop is the evolution of jazz. Live with it. I've finally come around to that point myself (wasn't easy). All this exclusive bs actually hurts jazz. I think you can guess what I think of Wynton as a person. Regardless, I love his music!

    There's two types of music

    GOOD

    and

    BAD

    fuck labels

    Would that work, Jeff? If I ever go back to Chi-town, let's meet at Lou Mitchells

    Seriously, eggs like pillows...mmmmmm

    I went there just in time for the Taste festival. So much fun. Dare I say, it may be a cooler city than NYC... The people there are certainly nicer
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-08-2015 at 09:30 PM.