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Hi again guys,
Im wondering if any of you sight readers out there have any helpful advice for making the connection between note-brain-fretboard.
Ive been playing for about 15 years, so im not a beginner on guitar, but a beginner on standard notation and reading.
I can read rhythm and pitch, but only v e r y s l o w l y. My rhythm reading is fine.
Im currently flicking through Ted Greenes single note soloing vols 1 and 2, and this is where i thought it was time to get my reading skills up to scratch.
So my question to those that have mastered this skill is; how do......how did.........what is............where d.......(scratches head)..........how did you master this?!
Im aware that sight reading is a different ball game from just reading to learn lines etc. But i wonder how i will ever get the connection between the page and my fingers. Maybe I havent mastered the fretboard as much as id thought, note naming wise (ie the enharmonic tones) It seems like a distant achievement for me, so any pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.
Steve.
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04-18-2009 05:27 PM
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As Pierre would say... time on your instrument.
What really helped me was making sight reading enjoyable. That enabled me to put in the time.
For me that was working my up from the very beginning classical repetiore and moving up levels. For me it's similar to just like reading a book, I just sit down and read a few chapters. The music sounds good and there is lots of it. Join the DelCamp forum Classical Guitar Forum • Index page. There is tons of good and free classical music for members in pdf format.
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Thanks for the reply, Fep.
I will certainly give it a go. Ive just registered and will look up the pdfs you mentioned.
Any more pearls anyone?
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Yep, just do it.
Take a ton of sheet music and start playing. Make sure to only play it once, to avoid playing from memory.
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Feps got it. Start with simple one line melody tunes. Play in a FEW different positions, in C at first, if necessary. Play some SIMPLE classical etudes in first position. Try sight-reading melodies from childrens songbooks...it might sound too basic, BUT, if you can't read a simple tune in a few positions, it's not time to move on yet.
It takes a LONG time to master the fretboard...I don't know anyone personally who has. Have FUN figuring out the notes. There are only twelve..remember this IS do-able.
Sailor
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An issue raised recently in another thread, and made to me by a 'classical guitar' pal of mine, both point out that because of the layout of the guitar fingerboard (same note located on different strings in a number of places) means that 'pure' sight reading on the guitar if virtually impossible; simply because you have to work out which finger to use, where to use it and where that finger needs to go next. It's easier on the piano or non-chordal instrument, so don't get too disheartened. I'm not much good at it by the way, but improved no end while I was taking classical guitar lessons for a while.
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Ah! Confirmation at last! I had this discussion with a sax player who gave me a hard time about my poor reading skills! But it's true, the C1 note for example is always the same grip on a sax and always the same key on the piano, no mather what the song does, but on a guitar it can be b-string 1st position, g-string 5th, d-string 10th position, dependent of what position the rest of the tune is played, what position you have to go to next, etc.
Originally Posted by RAQ
I started playing the classical guitar and in de 1st position I can play on sight without much problems. But for jazz, especially playing RealBook standards, it's much more convenient to take about the 5th - 7th position as your reference point or "fingering centre", without using any open strings. I am learning this by doing, taking the 5th position c on the g-string as my reference note. Just take the RealBook and start playing songs, especially ones you don't know. Of course, once you realy study a song, you will sometimes find it is much more convenient in a different position, but as a start this works for me and I am (slowly
) making progress!
There is an advantage also: guitarist much more learn melodies by heart instead of relying on reading them!
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Originally Posted by Little Jay
I think it was John Scofield (someone who tends to be quoted more often than I am) who said (I paraphrase) that reading music was only a stage you had to go through until you can play by ear. Meaning, I suppose, not that being able to read standard notation isn't important, but that music is about listening and playing, not reading.
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Thanks for the replies so far,
I tried the classical forum but found it a bit confusing to get to the pdfs (one is required to register, then join a group within the forum to be allowed access) Ill return to it at a later date.
So today i have found myself with a blank manuscript and a pencil, and just pencilling in random natural notes in one octave, then playing through it in the hope that its doing some good!
Now an observation i made when reading was that I tend to cheat a little when i see intervals ie. two lines = 3rd, space above 2 lines = 4th etc. Is this a bad habit? And should i be focussing on note names, NOT intervals?
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Whatever works for you. Personally I read the notes but reading intervals is fine too.
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I think reading intervals is an excellent idea! Gonna try it too......
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True of course, but doing a lot of jamsessions and thus being confronted with a lot of music I haven't heard before, being able to read is a big plus for me! Especially when no sax player has come to the session and they ask the guitarist to play the melody...... Originally Posted by RAQ
(This truely happens only when no sax or trumpet has showed up.... the guitarist's reputation of being a poor reader is widespread I'm afraid...
)
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Originally Posted by Little Jay
Yes, this is right. Intervals are more fundamental (no pun intended).
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Ok, Nobody get their nose bent out of shape with this .....you should learn to read and become somewhat proficient at it.
All I see here in this post are excuses not to read. As far as Scofield, I don't know if he made that comment or not but I do know that he reads and used to get calls to do sessions where he had to read. I also know that he writes out his lead sheets so that the other musicians in the band can follow what's going on.
We should not be so guitarcentric as to think that we don't have to read while the rest of the music community reads.
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Well, yes it always inevitably comes up when the topic of reading is concerned. It didnt take too long in this thread!
As far as getting proficient at it, well thats what the post is about.
Ill rephrase then.....I want to get good at sight reading. Any little ideas/exercises for getting the black dots connected to the fretboard?
Although so very true and deeply profound, please no "time spent on the instrument" answers (no offence Pierre) I just need something to work with that i can "spend time" with.Last edited by likeshisjazz134679; 04-21-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
No - I don't think anyway is questioning the importance of reading. I took the tone here to one of friendly consent and banter - and not of disagreement in any way. I'm sorry if I've given any other impression. Reading is an essential skill; only that it can be more difficult to learn on a guitar because of the structre of the fingerboard, and that (ultimately) music is about sound. In fact trying to make yourself learn to sight-read (almost for its own sake) can make it sem hard going, until you begin to relate to sounds and use reading for a purpose. Eventually I think you find you're learning to read without (almost) realising you're learning.
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I'm not singling anyone out. This topic comes up all the time. Some here (in the forum) feel that knowing tab is good enough. For them , maybe it is. But anyone interested in communicating their musical ideas should read standard notation.
Don't get me wrong. I hate to read. Unless it's fairly easy stuff like Real Book heads (most not all). And the point about different fingerings is well taken. But easier classical pieces shouldn't be a problem.
A Bach violin sonata for guitar, well, I think even violinists would have a problem getting it right on the first few tries as well. Reading guitar solos (improvised ones) , I loathe them. Fingering and note position is anybodies guess. Chords are actually easier, the choices get limited by the number of notes in the chord.
One thing that has helped me is to transcribe written music. While learinig Sibelius, I thought the best way would be to try to duplicate actual printed music including font, lyrics etc, etc. The plus is that I think my reading has improved.
I don't mean to sound like I'm giving anybody a hard time about this. Far from it. Not everybody here is a pro, or a teacher or what have you. Some here just are in it for fun and thats great. But to those of you that don't read, please make an effort. It will help you in the longrun.
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OK - that's fine, I understand. From arriving fairly late in life being unable to read notion, one of the better things I've do through classical guitar lessons is to learn to read - not well, but enough to get along. My attempt to encourage the OP was to point out that even when you know the names of the notes on the stave, and you know at least some of the names on the frets, you might still find yourself all fingers and thumbs because of the fretboard layout, and not to be discouraged by this. Originally Posted by JohnW400
On a more positive/productive note: I've tried using the Mick Goodrick (The Advancing Guitarist) ploy of playing on a single string; Jody Fisher's book has a number of major scale patterns which help (similar to the CAGED system I suppose) - but it's easy to merely follow paterns without paying attention to which notes you're playing, so I've tried using the patterns to teach me the notes; and Scott Tennant's 'Pumping Nylon' has a little matter of 120 arpeggio patterns to work through; and last but not least is William Leavitt's 'Reading Studies for Guitar (Berklee) specifically designed to improve sight reading on the guitar. None of these make it any easier though, but they can help give you a direction.Last edited by RAQ; 04-21-2009 at 01:13 PM. Reason: my inability to read the word 'arpeggio' correctly
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good post. Originally Posted by JohnW400
get some charts to songs you like, and read the melodies. make it fun, make it worth something. keep doing it. the only real way to get good at reading is to do it.
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Uh...JOHN??? My post above advocates clearly learning to read notation as a must. Have you forgotten about Sailor already? LOL
This has been excruciatingly covered in other threads as pointed out BUT... I always feel like guitarists especially don't want to learn to read!! It really is our language and it takes as long to master TABS, which are only an approximation, rhythm, etc.......
I was trying to say, above, that it takes a while. Play simple first position melodies for a while. Buy Mel Bay no. 1, Hal Leonard no. 1. Play twinkle twinkle, it doesn't matter. You won't sight-read Villa-Lobos over night!!
Enjoy the process, learn to READ the notes, and apply them to the guitar. It is a long and VERY rewarding exercise!!
Sailor
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There are a variety of skill sets involved in the process of reading music including:
a.ability to name notes on the staff
b.ability to understand the notated rhythm
c.fingerboard knowledge
d.an organized and flexible concept of fingering
e.understanding musical architecture and dynamics
and many more.
Two things that helped me improve my reading without opening a book were learning to play in all keys in 5 frets anywhere on the guitar and studying all the common divisions of the beat. I went from having to bring the music home to study to being able to play a sight reading gig.
I believe the trick is to uncover your personal weakest links regarding the reading process and strengthen them.
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First off, congrats to you, stemajor7 for still trying to improve after 15 years of playing. That's about how long I've been at it, and I know how hard it can be to motivate yourself. My recommendation would be William Leavitt's Berklee books; "Modern Method for Guitar." You've probably seen them a lot, and if you give lessons, you're probably pretty aware of its existence. The nice thing about his books is they move pretty fast so as to hold the attention of someone who already plays proficiently, but they are very systematic about learning positions, learning key signatures, etc.
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Every teacher will say the same (which boils down to time on the instrument)
Just read a lot, there is no "good" exercise for it other than doing it. Like I said, only play it through once, doesn't have to be propperly. You are learning to sightread not that specific piece.
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Hey Stem, what I do is pick a key, major, then learn some pieces that will move through the positions, when I'm comfortable I move to relative minors - and make sure I've got the scales right through 3 octaves - then pick another. I don't ignore other music in different keys I just put some focus on picking music that helps me understand finger/fretboard positioning.
Rob
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Thank you all for your input.
Ive took down some notes to take into the woodshed with me.
Joe Dalton; you had to say it didnt you! ha ha ha! Its something we all know is the answer to ALL of our musical problems, but dont want to hear it sometimes.
I spend a lot of "wasted" time on my instrument, with the occasional flash of inspiration into the learning zone. It should be rephrased "quality time on the instrument"
Or maybe sometimes we just need a wee nudge in the right direction, like I did.
Cheers jazzguitar.be forum members.
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