How important to transcribe guitarists?

[teok]

I've been surprised to see how many guitarists on this forum only transcribe guitar solos, ignoring other instruments. I've always figured 'a note is a note' and tend to transcribe my favourite musicians regardless of instrument. Guitar is just the instrument I happen to play. Since most of my faves happen to be horn players I've tended to ignore guitarists for the most part. Not that I dislike guitar at all, it's just that when I listen to Wayne Shorter and Cannonball Adderly and Miles, I'm inspired to say, "ooh, I want to learn that!"

Is this a mistake? Is there inherent value in learning lines played on a guitar that I don't get from learning lines played on trumpet, sax or piano? Is stuff learned from guitarists more applicable to guitar players?

[ecj]

I guess the big difference to me would be that, especially when you are just starting to learn how to play jazz, all of the stuff that guitar players play is possible on the guitar. You might not actually be able to nail a sax line, or a piano chord. Guitar players have spent many hours trying to figure out how to address the music on the instrument, and you can either learn from what they've done, or reinvent the wheel.

[targuit]

I am one who consistently denies "horn envy". Horn and wind instruments are fundamentally different as mainly melodic instruments than guitar which incorporates melody and harmony along with a percussive element. But I like to 'transcribe' piano players like Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett as well as some violinists.

[henryrobinett]

I have never in my life transcribed a guitar solo.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm not sure I know of anyone here who only transcribes guitar.

[coolvinny]

I think a healthy mix is where it's at.

It's easier to transcribe guitarists, and the real "transcription" process is deep enough (i.e., understand the thought process, apply to all keys, develop variations, internalize) that a guitar solo is unquestionably useful even though it may be slightly less effective at taking you to the holy grail of "horn-like lines" we all aspire to....

[mr. beaumont]

Which is funny, because horn lines aren't the holy grail for me...but I can still learn a lot from 'em.

I steal chords mostly...maaaan...I love Rhodes piano.

[AmundLauritzen]

I remember learning Bud Powells solo on "In the mood for a classic", a pseudo rhythm changes tune in a medium swing.

But other than that and some half-a**ed efforts at sight reading the Charlie Parker Omnibook I have learned mostly from guitar players: Martino, Pass, Benson, Bireli, Django, Wes... I usually just learn a few bars of something I hear them play that I like.

[henryrobinett]

I always figured music was music. I never wanted to sound like another guitarist. I never wanted my musical thinking to get confused with someone else's fretboard. I know it's weird. I don't know whether it made a difference. But I always figured that developing my ears and my musical taste didn't necessarily have anything to do with other guitarists. I mean of course it does I play guitar like other jazzy guitarists. But it was musical thinking that attracted me, not so much guitar. And whenever I look at the musical lineage of jazz it's the other instruments like piano, alto, tenor, trumpet that paved the way.

That's just me. Never transcribed guitar. Crazy.

[targuit]

Man, I'd rather examine a Stefan Grappelli solo than Ornette Coleman any day of the week. Guitar is more akin to a piano than a wind instrument in my opinion. Playing furious sheets of single line notes gets old fast in my book. But, taste is individual.

[henryrobinett]

Ornette is pretty easy actually. His lines are very simple. He has periods where he went crazy but for the most part he's melodic and simple, even though free.

But Coltrane, Brecker, Cannonball, Liebman, Hubbard, Miles, Clifford Brown! Great stuff to transcribe!

And piano? Red Garland is great. I got a LOT from him. Tougher for me than Coltrane. Corea, Jarrett, Cedar Walton, Herbie are some of my favorites. But the piano is static. The horns and guitar have a lot more expressive possibilities ; bends, slurs, vibrato. It's fun trying to create equivalence.

Im not sure what you were comparing between Ornette and Grappelli.

[targuit]

To me it isn't about 'easy' or not. I like lyrical melodic phrasing, and I'd rather listen to Grappelli than Coleman most days of the week. As I've noted in the past, no "horn envy" here. I stroke the strings.

Different strokes .....

I like Erroll Garner, Jarrett, and Evans as my favorite pianists. Art Tatum is too overwhelming often for my taste.

[henryrobinett]

Ornette is one of those guys you have to play in order to understand. We did a series of Ornette music. Man was it challenging in an entirely different way. I came away with a profound respect for him. It forces you to really listen differently. Most of his music, especially his earlier music, all have clear harmonic changes that aren't written. It's not free as has become considered free -- not wham bam play crazy shit. There really are non-written chord changes. And you can move them yourself. Or the changes happen approximately because there's no real meter.

OK, you can write the changes out, but that defeats the point. If the bass player and drummer understand the concept and the tunes, it's an amazing experience. And his music is blues infused and very diatonic. It's not really OUT there, as much as Coltrane's later stuff.

I don't have horn envy. I just have less guitar love. My uncle, who played tenor back before anyone on the west coast heard Charlie Parker, had an extensive record collection - 78's on forward. As a kid I'd go down to his basement every couple of weeks or so and he'd play me the history of jazz. There was Fletcher Henderson. And out of that band came Coleman Hawkins. Also Louis Armstrong. He'd play this for me. Show me Hawkins style and how the big battle happened with Lester Young, my uncles favorite. He play a plot of Lester Young and describe what was different. He'd tell me about his Berg Larson mouthpiece. And Chu Berry. Then the Beboppers - Bird, Diz, Miles, Powell, Monk. Then Dexter Gordon, Rollins on forward to Coltrane and Dolphy.

Correct or not I came to see and understand the lineage of jazz; the connecting links. And guitar really wasn't part of the most important linkages. And when I heard guitarists I heard and different kind of lineage, which to my ear, seemed less sophisticated than the Hawkins-Lester-Bird-Dexter-Coltrane-Dolphy one.

The young guitarist at that time was Larry Coryell playing with Chico Hamilton, and Gary Burton. Pre McLaughlin - or pre my knowing anything about him. I think probably In A Silent Way and maybe even Bitches Brew were out, but his phenomena didn't hit me. Mahavishnu did strike.

Jazz had become modal and new and exciting. Coltrane complex stuff. Horn players and piano players were playing all this great stuff. Guitar players were no where in sight in this music. Hanging with that fast ride cymbal playing those strange progressions. I wanted to find a place for guitar in this new music. The one guy who emerged who could play and find a place for it, in a way, was McLaughlin. Miroslav Vitous Mountain In The Clouds and Tony Williams Emergency. And of course Bitches Brew. But I wanted to hear how guitar sounded being a part of Miles' Nefertiti or Bobby Hutchersons Herzog with Chick Corea.

So that's what got me. For me it was never Grappelli or Django, or Pass, although he was a real great bop player, or Kenny, or Hall. All great players, but they never did much for me. I never aspired to playing like them. But of course, that's just me.

[fep]

I knew I liked Larry Carlton's playing but I didn't fully appreciate him until I did some transcriptions and played some of his lines. His use of vibrato and dynamics, it was quite a lesson in articulation trying to imitate him.

[docbop]

I knew I liked Larry Carlton's playing but I didn't fully appreciate him until I did some transcriptions and played some of his lines. His use of vibrato and dynamics, it was quite a lesson in articulation trying to imitate him.

and Larry says it's was John Coltrane's Ballads album that taught him about phrasing and all that.

I was lucky enough to be around Larry a lot back in the day and what used to amaze me is watching him in the studio. They would pass out a chart and he'd look it over and then play it with like he'd been playing the song for years with bends, dynamics, and soulful phrasing. He's also one of those who can do a take on a solo and remember exactly what he played so he can modify it if producer wants a note or phrase changed.

[pkirk]

Ornette is one of those guys you have to play in order to understand. We did a series of Ornette music. Man was it challenging in an entirely different way. I came away with a profound respect for him. It forces you to really listen differently. Most of his music, especially his earlier music, all have clear harmonic changes that aren't written. It's not free as has become considered free -- not wham bam play crazy shit. There really are non-written chord changes. And you can move them yourself. Or the changes happen approximately because there's no real meter.

OK, you can write the changes out, but that defeats the point. If the bass player and drummer understand the concept and the tunes, it's an amazing experience. And his music is blues infused and very diatonic. It's not really OUT there, as much as Coltrane's later stuff.

About 30 years ago the university I was studying at chose to give Ornette an award for his "skies of america" composition, and as part of the festivities they asked some of us students in the jazz ensemble to perform a few Ornette's small group tunes in front of an audience with Ornette there, the idea was we would play and in between tunes he'd take questions from the audience, and comment on the tunes. This was obviously going to be a train wreck: we were all competent, could play standards/changes and, although I loved Ornette's music, I had never studied it at the time. In addition, Ornette is a shy person who speaks through his music much better than through his words. In any case, by that time he was already doing the "prime time" stuff, so an ill conceived idea all around.

We played a few of his tunes: Lonely Woman, the Blessing, a few others, while Ornette stood on the side of the stage, presumably cringing inside at how off we were from his concept. After a bit of this he stopped us and told the audience he was going to demonstrate a musical experiment: he gave each of us instructions on what to play and counted off. I never understood what he told me to do, but in any case the result was much better.

In the years since then I've learned a lot and more or less get that in his early period the changes are kind of fluid, directed usually by him but sometimes by Haden. I've done a certain amount of "free playing" and understand it a bit better now.

One great recording of his is a duet with Haden (soapsuds soapsuds) where you can really hear how they create harmony and melody spontaneously.

Some of Ornette's stuff is really out there, though. Check out "science fiction". But, as Henry says, diatonic and blues is always in his soloing, even when what's around him is complete cacophony.

[henryrobinett]

So docbop - in what capacity were you around Carlton in those data? Friend? Audio engineer? Guitar tech? Do tell!!

[eddy b.]

To the O.P it's my humble opinion that it is extremely helpful to transcribe what jazz guitarists play. I learned a bunch of Miles,Clifford,Trane,Dolphy,Mingus etc. which was extremely helpfull.However when I started to transcribe guitarists Kenny Burrell,Charlie Christian,Jim Hall,Ed Bickert,Bill Frisell,John Scofield many guitar mysteries started to become a lot more clear. I think it is invaluable to learn directly from the masters of what ever instrument you play.

[henryrobinett]

Oh I would definitely agree. I wouldn't suggest anyone do it like I did. It all depends on what your goals are and what you want to do with the instrument.

[henryrobinett]

Great story pkirk! Wow. That must've really been something.

I had the opportunity to have a fairly extensive conversation with him once. He is very shy and very soft spoken. It was hard to understand him, but because he spoke so softly and his ideas were deep. And he expressed himself opaquely.

I like Science Fiction. It is out there, but Ornette's playing is still diatonic and blues enfused.

[TH]

I only transcribe 19th century jazz guitarists. It keeps me from being overwhelmed and it also helps me to reserve enough time for precious practicing.
My circle and friends may not be typical but they are among the top original forces in the field and none of them have transcribed guitarists. A concensus is that so much time was needed to understand their own unique relationship with the instrument that they didn't find it feasible to go that route, to assimilate somebody else's approach that didn't necessarily coincide with their own. They all have something else in common: a deep understanding of jazz history, and in many cases, the ability to sing the solos they love and know well. But they never sat down and learned them note by note, they listened, loved and absorbed the totality of which the notes were but one element.
Recognizing that some people do learn that way though, one encourages students to work with solos of other instrumentalists, and never use a phrase or line until they have understood it structurally and fully, and have reworked it until it was no longer recognizable. Then, he points out, you have the right to use it.
Just one take
David

[docbop]

So docbop - in what capacity were you around Carlton in those data? Friend? Audio engineer? Guitar tech? Do tell!!

I was a recording engineer for awhile and Larry and all the top cats would be in for sessions, it was great getting to watch these guys work. Then I found an old album Larry Carlton A Little Help from My Friends. I wasn't sure if it was THEE Larry Carlton it was a young guy in a suit, wingtip shoes, and a ES 175. Well being I'll call any one, I got Larry phone number and called him up. I introduced myself and asked about the album, he laughed and said yes it was him. He explained the he won best soloist at the Disneyland College Jazz competition and first prize was a recording contract to do an album. Larry then said he doesn't even have a copy of the actual album any more, so I offered him mine (I had taped it already), so he put me on the guest list for the club he was playing that night and we met, we got to be friends after that.

Then Valley Arts Guitar was just down the street from the music school I worked at and that is where Larry, Robben Ford, and others would have work done and hang out and I talked to him there. Working at the music school I booked the seminar so I got to talk to many great Jazz guitarist and other Jazz musicians.

I've been very blessed growing up in Los Angeles when I did and getting involved with live audio, recording, playing music, and working at and attending music schools, I've met and got to know a lot of great artists over the years. Having the gift of gab helps, I talked myself into a John Lennon recording session once.

Lots of memories.

[henryrobinett]

I thought so!!! You must have many great stories! Why did you get out of the business? Money's not so good and the industry is on terrible condition. And you became a Doc?

Were you a tracking engineer? Mixing? Staff or freelance?

[docbop]

I thought so!!! You must have many great stories! Why did you get out of the business? Money's not so good and the industry is on terrible condition. And you became a Doc?

Were you a tracking engineer? Mixing? Staff or freelance?

I was on staff and had worked my way up to what was called a 2nd Engineer in other words did a little of everything. It was early pre-computer control so ran the tape deck, keep legend sheets, patch things, adjust mic's you name it, but that is how you learned. I was let go after a run in with the new studio manager and it was a slow period in the industry so I picked up live audio work. Then went back to playing and that led to the job at the music school.

[pkirk]

I only transcribe 19th century jazz guitarists.

That's got to be a challenge.