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So is perfect pitch the same as pitch memory? I can hear pitches in my head without a reference note, but sometimes if I'm having an off day, I use relative pitch in my head--as in, I remember what C or Bb sounds like and then climb up the scale until I hit the note mentally-- to figure out the unknown note (all without an instrument or tuner to verify/guess at it)
Last edited by Astronomer; 02-12-2012 at 12:56 AM.
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02-12-2012 12:51 AM
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I'm pretty much with Matt on this one.
Originally Posted by pauln
While you got your facts straight it simply isn't a valid arguement.
There is nothing magical or special about the pitches that we know as the 12 notes. It's nothing but a convention. But that doesn't change the fact that some people can recognize and reproduce pitches pretty accurately.
If for instance we changed this convention and lowered or raised all the notes by 1/4 note (or 1/3, 2/3 or whatnot) I'm sure people with perfect pitch would be somewhat confused at first since all notes would then sound like "in between" notes to them. But in time they would get used to the new convention and be back to normal.
Another thing.. it seems that some folks misunderstand the "perfect" in "perfect pitch". It doesn't mean a perfect (as in super human) perception! People with perfect pitch are still human and human senses simply aren't exact. What it means is simply the ability to recognize and reproduce pitches WITHOUT a refference note within a fairly accurate margin. If you ask them to sing a D# they will sing a note that sounds like.. well.. a D#. But if you measure the pitch with some highly sensitive equipment you'll find that they're off by X nanohertz or something. The same can be said about any note that has ever been sung or played in the history of music.
All in my opinion off course
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I've heard this analogy, I think this is all from Burge and I'm using my own words...
For sight we can easily differentiate between colors. We can identify red as opposed to green and we pretty much never get it wrong. But look at a black and white photo and we're just guessing at shades from white to grey to black, put that on a scale of 60 shades (think 5 octaves) and we may be close but we are not going to get it right most of the time.
Similarly, those with perfect pitch are not guessing at pitch recognition.
Also, those without perfect pitch are just guessing at pitch recognition similarly to the shades of grey for sight.
Also, those with perfect pitch have no problem with the different octaves (until it gets real high or real low in the human perception range), to them all F#'s for instance have a similar characteristic. FWIW, Burge describes it as F#'s have kind of a vibrant almost buzzy sound, whereas Eb's are mellow and really round or warm, and it doesn't matter which octave you're talking about. Those with perfect pitch are hearing these kind of qualities and might not even be aware of it or know how to explain it.Last edited by fep; 02-12-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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perfect pitch can't be learned.
it's interesting, but has nothing to do with writing or playing music,
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the last time perfect pitch was discussed in this forum (a couple of months ago), i said that i had perfect pitch. some clown, who doesn't know me from adam, told me unequivocally that i did not.
anyway, i'm reading all this while half-watching a documentary, one that i've never seen before. at the very end, the man being interviewed sings a song (a capella). i decided to see if i have 'it,' and saying to myself, "there's no way the last note that guy is singing is anything but a B," and played B on my guitar. it was the same note.
to my ears, the spaces between notes are huge, and if i ever made a mistake while trying to guess what note's being played, i would consider it a big goof. but as markf said, having perfect pitch doesn't make me a better musician. perfect pitch comes in handy, but it's not necessary for anyone wanting to become a good writer or musician.
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Originally Posted by patskywriter
That's note recognition, not perfect pitch. Forget being able to recognize the B at the end of a song. We all, as musicians do something similar at any given time. "I remember, when I was a boy" (Captain Ramius aka Sean Connery, Hunt for red October) I used to emulate the 3 chime tones that were used by NBC. Never got it wrong! Same thing. Refer to my challenge in post #12 here in this thread. If you, or anyone else in the world can do this repeatedly, and with 100% accuracy . . . then and only then will I concede perfect pitch as one of your attributes. Other than that, I revert to my reference to Louisiana Lightnin' aka Ron Guidry . . . I think it was back in my post number 4.
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I have a good friend with perfect pitch and I'm a believer. I watched this guy totally out of the blue name 20 notes played at the same time on the piano over 5 octaves. He didn't bat an eye. I've seen him transcribe solos by hand without ever touching an instrument. He's got it, and he describes it as hearing in color. Like each pitch is a different color on a spectrum, and they blend together like a rainbow. He can hear where pitches lie in the spectrum... He had to learn what to call them, but he's always heard "in color"
I think in his case, what he has can't be learned.
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What did she say that made you think she doesn't have perfect pitch. There was nothing in her post that proved she doesn't have perfect pitch. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Your post is completely arrogant and disrespectful.
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Arrogant and disrespectful?? You must be kidding me. Because I disagree with someone it's arrogant and disrespectful? Get a grip man . . . you're out of line here. Originally Posted by fep
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For the record, I have perfect pitch also, and I'm absolutely certain that I could do your 'challenge' in post #12 repeatedly and with 100% accuracy. I know at least two other people personally who could also do it, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if patskywriter could do it too. The existence of what is referred to as 'perfect pitch' is an established fact - to deny this is foolish and flies in the face of accepted evidence. If you object to the phrase 'perfect pitch' and prefer 'accurate pitch perception' that's fine but it seems to me that you are talking about semantics here - we all know that in reality, nothing is 'perfect' - it's just a phrase man, you need to lighten up. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Last edited by reventlov; 02-14-2012 at 06:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by reventlov
Maybe you're right. Maybe it's just that those of us who don't have as good an ear as those who claim they have perfect pitch just can't accept it as at all possible. And, I agree that the phrases are too often mixed up. Perfect pitch, pitch recognition, accurate pitch perception, relative pitch . . . . Personally, I just thank God for my Boss TU12EX
I can recognize intervals vairly accurately, tune my guitar after hearing a reference A or E 440. But, I certainly couldn't walk into a club, listen to a guitar chord and say for certain what chord it is and pick out every note and its inversion.
Anyway, I really don't think I disrespected patskywriter. Just pointed out that because someone recognizes a certain note most of the time. . . that's a long way from perfection. Also, no real need for anyone to lighten up in this thread. It's all been pretty civil. There are those who have stated that they believe perfect pitch exists . . . and those who have doubted that it does. Each has openly stated an argument for and against. Isn't that what forum dialog and debate is?
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'Maybe you're right. Maybe it's just that those of us who don't have as good an ear as those who claim they have perfect pitch just can't accept it as at all possible'
Why can't you accept it as possible? the evidence for it's existence is overwhelming.
'I certainly couldn't walk into a club, listen to a guitar chord and say for certain what chord it is and pick out every note and its inversion.'
Lots of people can though. Just because you can't so something yourself doesn't mean others can't do it. Some things are matters of opinion and some things are matters of fact - the existence of perfect pitch is the latter; anyone who thinks it doesn't exist is just plain wrong. Just because you can't so something yourself doesn't mean others can't do it.
'I really don't think I disrespected patskywriter.'
Firstly, I didn't say you did. However, when you say ' those of us who don't have as good an ear as those who claim they have perfect pitch just can't accept it as at all possible' - you are by implication suggesting that those who say they have perfect pitch are somehow lying to you, or are fooling themselves....that seems to me to be pretty disrespectful.
I repeat - the evidence for the existence of so-called perfect pitch is vast and irrefutable, there is no sensible argument against it's incidence, it is a proven fact.
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Originally Posted by fep
Please guys, this is not a tone worthy of this otherwise gentlemanly forum I think. Originally Posted by Patrick2
And personally I didn't find Patrick's post that arrogant and disrepectful. It's fair enough that he's sceptical about perfect pitch I think. It's his right. I've had my doubts since I never actually MET anyone who has it. And I've met a LOT of musicians.
Another thing. People keep saying that is isn't that useful and doesn't make one a better musician. That part I just DON'T get. How can it NOT be serious advantage? Especially in jazz which is very complicated melodically and harmonically and is based on a aural tradition rather than a written one (like classical). Yes one would still need need training in order to hear complex harmonies and advanced melodic lines but wouldn't it make your general eartraining A LOT easier?
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actually, i said that it comes in handy, which it does, especially in cases where you're 'sitting in' and haven't been told the key. having perfect pitch has made me a better musician, sure, but obviously one can become a good musician without it. in other words, i'm making sure that i don't sound like a braggard. because i'm a nice person. and every bit a lady.
Last edited by patskywriter; 02-14-2012 at 10:44 AM.
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OK! Thanks for clearing that up Originally Posted by patskywriter
And yes off course it comes in handy in that case but I don't really think that makes a large difference. I remember when listening to the Burge's rambling that he mentioned this; imagine if you're at a concert and the singer just starts singing a perfect C (or whatnot) without any reference note. Wouldn't that be something? I immediately thought: no it wouldn't really matter to me. Either I like the actual music or I don't. In neither case it makes any difference whether the singer needs a reference note or not. But I guess that I never gave much thought to showmanship or professionalism etc. To me listening to and playing music has always been.. well .. more of a spiritual thing.
But what I really want to ask you is this: Did/does having perfect pitch make it easier for you to train your ear in general? It's my impression that a lot of jazzers spend as much time (or more) transcribing and doing eartraining as they do on their instruments. Would you say that compared to other musicians you know that you had an easier time doing all of this?
That is where I see the real advantage in having perfect pitch.
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I would off course like to ask you the same question that I just asked patskywriter... Originally Posted by reventlov
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"But what I really want to ask you is this: Did/does having perfect pitch make it easier for you to train your ear in general? It's my impression that a lot of jazzers spend as much time (or more) transcribing and doing eartraining as they do on their instruments. Would you say that compared to other musicians you know that you had an easier time doing all of this?"
Yes - it makes ear-training very easy indeed, that is exactly how it is useful. It also helps with tuning and with sitting in with bands playing unfamiliar repertoire.
It doesn't help though with lots of other things that I'd like to be able to do - I can't fluently improvise over complex sequences at high speed like John McLaughlin, I can't get a tone like Johnny Smith, I haven't got Jim Hall's gift for playing just the right note at just the right time, I can't do chord solos like Ted Greene, I can't 'groove' like Wes Montgomery etc etc etc - I'd happily swap my perfect pitch for any of those abilities.
Over all I'd say I'm glad I have it but if I lost it tomorrow I'd get over the loss pretty fast, it's useful but not majorly so.
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I have an interesting story. Originally Posted by aniss1001
OK! Thanks for clearing that up
But what I really want to ask you is this: Did/does having perfect pitch make it easier for you to train your ear in general? It's my impression that a lot of jazzers spend as much time (or more) transcribing and doing eartraining as they do on their instruments. Would you say that compared to other musicians you know that you had an easier time doing all of this?
I got into the relative pitch ear training course at a local college. There was a young lady with perfect pitch in the class. It was part of the core curriculum for performance majors and she was required to take the class. She was very very good at the class but not excellent. I think her problem was she didn't have to work at it, she would use her absolute pitch and seemingly not have to rely on learning relative pitch.
Fast forward to the 4th semester.
Melodic dictation - she would fly thru that and it seems she never made a mistake.
4 part choral dictation - really fast also, no mistakes.
Chord quality identification - she was slow!
For chord quality identification we had gotten to 7th chords with all the inversions. To practice in the class, we would go around the now very small class (tough instructor with a history of maybe 75% of the students not making it to the 4th quarter), the instructor would play a chord, and the student would say "half diminished 7 3rd inversion" etc. We had drilled and had software to practice on, and learned what these chord qualities sounded like.
It would get to the gal with absolute pitch, instructor plays a chord, and you could see her brain working away and she'd feel a little embarrassed and nervous.
Teacher says, "just make a guess". Student says, "you played Db Bb F Ab". Teacher says, "what chord quality is that"?. Student pauses trying to figure out what chord those notes spell out and eventually says, "it's a minor seven in 1st inversion".
She could easily, accurately and quickly say "you played Db Bb F Ab" and it seems she never made a mistake. But getting to the "minor seven in 1st inversion" wasn't so easy for her, she was using music theory for that 2nd part and not her ear.
Like I said, the problem was she didn't have to work hard on the class like the rest of us and probably never did the chord quality practice that the rest of us did.
I've known five musicians that had perfect pitch, four of them where from my college experience with 2 of them being professors. Three of the five where Asian, two were Caucasian which was no where near representative of the demographic that I was living in.Last edited by fep; 02-14-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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i play by ear and just for fun. everyone else i've played with could probably read better than i could (i studied classical piano as a kid, but only took a 6-week summer course on guitar when i was age 10 or so). but having "big ears" as my jazz-musician uncle used to say, plus perfect pitch, allows me to be able to hang with other musicians (though not all!). Originally Posted by aniss1001
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Being able to hear and name any note is good. But it doesn't tell you which notes to play at what time. That skill can only be learned by listening to countless hours of jazz music and figuring out your way around the guitar.
Muscle memory(and/or lack thereof) is a b*tch. There is no silver bullet to replace hard work on the instrument. Ask any accomplished player. Perfect pitch will not give you the muscle memory to play idiomatic to the jazz style.
Now I'm just generalizing and assuming this is the goal for most people.
But it will help tremendeously when transcribing solos if you know all the notes on the fretboard.
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