The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Do you think it's possible to develop it or do you need to be a child prodigy who has had it since they were 4? I've heard different things about this. I'm definitely not a child prodigy who's had perfect pitch since I was 4 (wasn't even introduced to music then), but I've had moments when I feel it would be possible to develop.

    I'm 15 now, play guitar and music in general a lot. Certain pieces that I've played a lot I can recall from memory the exact sound of certain notes, e.g some months ago I had been playing Cantaloupe Island regularly then going away from my guitar I could still hear the F on the 4 +. Later I heard a sax playing a note and I instinctively knew it was an F, tested it and I was right. I kept keeping the note fresh in my head by playing it and thinking 'F', for a while I could sing it (I'm no singer), even woke up in the middle of the night, could hear it in my head, got up to check and I was spot on.

    I consciously had a definite memory of the exact sound in my head. I've had this with a few different songs eg Summertime (in A) I had the 1st two melody notes stuck in my head, (E and C), I could hum the rest but that would have been using relative pitch to work them out, and I had the root stuck in my head too, thinking back to a time I heard these notes I could hear the same notes without reference.

    While I lose the memory of the sound if I haven't played it or had it stuck in my head it's quite interesting I've been able to do this. Can any musician do this? Anybody here had an experience like this? Just curious. Also if I can develop this to a more useful level (get a memory of all 12 chromatic notes filed away in my head) it'll be quite useful

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  3. #2

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    First of all, it is not so unusual to know the pitch of some things. As a long time guitar player I can walk over to my guitar and sing any open string, then pick it and I'll be dead on. Likewise, I can sing my door bell before pushing the button, I can sing in advance the Windows songs that play whenever I start or stop my computer, and every once in a while I'll hear a pitch (like clanging a pot lid while washing dishes) and recognize it as the same pitch as the door bell (and check to find I'm right). Any long term exposure to playing music probably supports the development and maintenance of this kind of thing.

    Now I think there are some definitional and logical (and practical) problems with what most people call Perfect Pitch. The usual idea that most people have is that someone with perfect pitch can walk over to a piano and name the note being played by someone else without looking.
    Sometimes you'll see stuff that suggests that someone with perfect pitch is haunted and distressed by instruments that are tuned a little offset from concert pitch.

    This can't be correct for lots of reasons. One is that the standardization of concert pitch has only been with us a few decades - prior to that, a particular named pitch like "concert A" was NOT the usual 440Hz but all over the place for the last 300 years. Concert A in the 420's was common throughout this time.
    In 1714 the Strasbourg Cathedral organ used A391Hz (today that is a 1Hz flat G).
    In 1759 the Trinity College Cambridge organ used A309Hz (today's slightly sharp Eb)!
    From 1846 to 1854 the Philharmonic pitch was A452.5Hz (Today's slightly flat C#)!
    In 1879 Steinway of England used A454 and the British Army regulation pitch for woodwinds was A451.9Hz...
    The modern standard A440 was adopted internationally in 1939.

    So the first question one needs to ask anyone claiming perfect pitch is, "To what frequency of concert pitch does your perfect pitch align?" This is important because calling a note "F" is not good enough; in the past that same pitch could be E or F# or somewhere not even a half or whole step away, or more.

    If they answer that, perhaps saying A440, then you may proceed to inquire, "To which temperament does your perfect pitch align?" Do they hear perfect pitch as Just Intonation, Pythagorean Tuning, Meantone Temperament, Well Temperament, or Equal Temperament?

    Once you go down this road you have to conclude that if there is such a thing as perfect pitch it must be based on frequency only, not letter names of the note or more likely the closest note. I don't think perfect pitchers express what they hear as frequencies, they name note letter names. I'm not even sure if the methodologies for testing for perfect pitch include considerations of concert pitch and temperament when interpreting the response given in the form of a letter note name... the whole concept of perfect pitch seems to be based on a long string of unsupported assumptions about music.

    Perfect Relative Pitch is the one that is actually useful and used by musicians and may or may not be accompanied by naming the letter names of the notes. A lot of people that play by ear hear and recognize musical notes, intervals, chords, and progressions without knowing their names; others can name everything they hear and play; others may rely more on keeping track verbally or visually and may employ formal systems to name the elements. There is a lot of variation in how folks hear, understand, and perform music.

    It sounds to me like you are well on the path to relative pitch, which is the one you want. The occasional episodes of perfect pitch just come with the territory - but it's not something you want to try to develop as a musician.
    Last edited by pauln; 10-27-2011 at 12:08 AM.

  4. #3

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    I've had it for as long as I can remember. I don't suffer any "distress" over instruments not tuned to 440.

  5. #4
    Very interesting... Why wouldn't you want to develop it? I see relative pitch is very useful, I'm not perfect at it but it's already very useful what I can do. But if it's possible to have the 12 chromatic notes stored in my head as I said above why wouldn't I work towards that? Or just a couple or even one I can consistently nail without reference. When I think about 'perfect pitch' I just think of the ability to hear a note in western music (which has 12 different notes, I'm no expert on the history of notes but since the standard now is A440, realistically all you'd need is what the note is now, even if an F now used to be called a Bb, by today's standard it's an F), and know what it is in today's notation. Pauln you just burst my bubble about thinking notes are the same (I had to look up those temperaments you mentioned).

  6. #5

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    I've had it all my life.

    pauln - I'm sure if I heard, for example, an organ which was tuned to a different frequency range so that the A was tuned to say a slightly sharp G by the modern accepted system, I'd identify it as a slightly sharp G with no problem, I don't really see what point you are making there. I - and I'm sure others with perfect pitch - identify notes using the system I was brought up with, which is A = 440.

    I don't believe that perfect pitch can be developed though, you either have it or you don't - relative pitch is actually more useful though, and of course it can be developed.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by EightString
    I've had it for as long as I can remember. I don't suffer any "distress" over instruments not tuned to 440.
    But that was my very point about the arbitrary assignment of concert pitch - that the claim for distress is nonsense.

    I am curious, how was your early occurrence of perfect pitch and when did you learn the names of the notes? I'm sure you did not just walk up to someone playing or listening to music and blurt out, "That note is an F" without having first learned the names of the notes. I guess what I mean is, were you aware of having it before any musical training, and if so, how did you know; or if after musical training, how much did the training "fit" or "not fit" what you felt, or was it some other way?

    Reventlov - so it is A440 Equal Temperament because that is what we hear now? Interesting; same question as above about earliest discovery that you had it, please?
    Last edited by pauln; 10-27-2011 at 02:25 AM.

  8. #7

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    I was taught that everyone is born with perfect pitch but if you don't grow up in a music environment, you lose it when you are 4 or 5 years old.

    wiz

  9. #8
    But seeing as with work and basically lots of exposure to music I've had sort of perfect pitch moments (another example is I've heard songs and think "that sounds just like that other song, which I know starts on an A", test it and sure enough it's an A, I've done this with songs I don't regularly play too), does it seem possible that I'm developing a kind of pitch recognition system later in life than normal? Just curious, I admit I would like to be able to recognize notes from memory but I've only done normal ear training (intervals, chords etc). Thinking about it I haven't done work specifically for that in a while, I simply play eg a ii v, think "that's a ii v", then later I can hear ii v's naturally. I was writing this listening to Bird, heard the pianist comp a iii vi ii v progression simply knowing what it was, thought "this sounds like a familiar key, does it resolve to a..." played a C straight off and was right. Odd is it? Is it possible I'm developing a pitch recognition thing simply from lots of exposure to music?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln

    The modern standard A440 was adopted internationally in 1939.
    Actually, it has moved upwards since 1939, so the de facto standard in Western Europe (and USA?) these days is A442. That is what say french woodwind instruments (Selmer, Buffet, LeBlanc, Couesnon etc.) are tuned for. You can adapt to say A440 with a clarinet by using a slightly longer barrel or pull out the barrel on the tenon, but then the relative tuning between the notes of the instrument is a little more off from perfect (woodwinds never have "perfect" intonation), and one will also have to adapt via variations in the embouchure. It is very hard to have woodwinds from the beginning of the 20'th century play in tune with the modern A442. A dixieland clarinettist may bring to a gig the 1912 Selmer clarinet with "original New Orleans" Albert key system that he found in a pawn shop and proudly repadded himself - only to find out that its tuning is way off from the piano with its A442.
    Last edited by oldane; 10-27-2011 at 06:02 AM.

  11. #10

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    i've always had perfect pitch. my mom, who was a music teacher recognized it in me at a very early age. it has come in handy, especially when sitting in without the benefit of having a fake book or sheet music in front of me. when listening to other guitar players who sit in, i've noticed them sliding up to the note or chord while trying to figure out what key everyone was playing in. because i have perfect pitch i can nail it as soon as i sit down.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by patskywriter
    i've always had perfect pitch. my mom, who was a music teacher recognized it in me at a very early age. it has come in handy, especially when sitting in without the benefit of having a fake book or sheet music in front of me. when listening to other guitar players who sit in, i've noticed them sliding up to the note or chord while trying to figure out what key everyone was playing in. because i have perfect pitch i can nail it as soon as i sit down.
    I think you are describing relative pitch, as are some others.
    I have never performed with sheet music, charts, or fake book, and I routinely play songs I've never heard before with people I've just met on stage. Being able to do that has nothing to do with perfect pitch, it's about being a musician.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by patskywriter
    i've always had perfect pitch...because i have perfect pitch i can nail it as soon as i sit down.
    Just curious. Are you referring to absolute pitch? Can you sing an "A" anywhere anytime from memory?

  14. #13

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    I know a couple of musicians with incredible absolute pitch skills. It seems magical to me... They both say they have had it since they where children.

    Per Wikipedia, there is no documented case of an adult learning absolute pitch.

    An unequivocal resolution to the ongoing debate would require controlled experiments that are both impractical and unethical. Researchers have been trying to teach absolute pitch ability in laboratory settings for more than a century,[56] and various commercial absolute-pitch training courses have been offered to the public since the early 1900s.[57] However, no adult has ever been documented to have acquired absolute listening ability,[58] as all adults who have undergone AP training have failed, when formally tested, to show "an unqualified level of accuracy... comparable to that of AP possessors".[59]

  15. #14

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    I did some looking around to find out about the testing methodology, didn't find a thing about that.
    I did find some research papers that suggest an interesting idea - Relative Pitch is the new and improved way of hearing for humans, Perfect Pitch is the old standard way used by the rest of the animal kingdom.

    What we call Perfect Pitch is the method throughout the animal kingdom (birds, for example fail to recognize songs that have been transposed even a slight bit away from the original).
    It turns out that Relative Pitch has only been found in humans and is a much more complex process than Perfect Pitch. The rare occurrence of Perfect Pitch in humans is likely a genetic throwback to the "original" method of pitch identification.

    I'm happy to be operating with the latest version.

  16. #15

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    'Reventlov - so it is A440 Equal Temperament because that is what we hear now? Interesting; same question as above about earliest discovery that you had it, please?'

    Within a couple of weeks of starting to play music, I could immediately play back on my guitar any note I heard, even before I had learned the names of all the notes. Once I learned the names of the notes, I could name any note I heard. Since I was brought up on an A=440 system, obviously the names I learned for notes were taken from that system.

    'I did find some research papers that suggest an interesting idea - Relative Pitch is the new and improved way of hearing for humans, Perfect Pitch is the old standard way used by the rest of the animal kingdom.'
    Relative pitch is a human invention, there is nothing natural about it, so of course it would only be found in humans.
    'Relative Pitch is the new and improved way of hearing for humans' is in any case a nonsensical statement - percentage-wise, only a small number of humans have got relative pitch, it's a consciously acquired skill which is totally unnecessary to anyone who is not a musician. It's not new anyway, musicians have practised relative pitch for literally centuries.

    'birds, for example fail to recognize songs that have been transposed even a slight bit away from the original'
    How could that be checked? how would someone know what a bird recognises?

    'I did some looking around to find out about the testing methodology, didn't find a thing about that.'
    You couldn't have looked very far, there are literally dozens of sites on the net which go into it in varying degrees of detail. Here are a couple to be getting on with:-
    Diana Deutsch - Short Term Memory for Tones>

    As regards the 'research papers that suggest an interesting idea' that you have seen - who conducted and wrote up this research? Where can I read it? It seems from the bits you quoted to be totally unsound and based on false and easily disproved premises but to be fair to whoever wrote it, perhaps if these points are placed in their proper context, they might make more sense, so can you please supply a link to it? Frankly I'm having difficulty believing it exists without seeing it for myself.
    Last edited by reventlov; 10-27-2011 at 05:28 PM.

  17. #16

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    Here is what I found... here

    It mentions the testing of transposed notes recognition (relative pitch) in humans, and some about the testing birds for perfect and relative pitch.

    I think there is much to be learned and little known about it. I found estimates for the occurrence of perfect pitch ranging from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 1200... that alone tells me the testing and assessment methodologies are all over the place.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    But that was my very point about the arbitrary assignment of concert pitch - that the claim for distress is nonsense.

    I am curious, how was your early occurrence of perfect pitch and when did you learn the names of the notes? I'm sure you did not just walk up to someone playing or listening to music and blurt out, "That note is an F" without having first learned the names of the notes. I guess what I mean is, were you aware of having it before any musical training, and if so, how did you know; or if after musical training, how much did the training "fit" or "not fit" what you felt, or was it some other way?

    Reventlov - so it is A440 Equal Temperament because that is what we hear now? Interesting; same question as above about earliest discovery that you had it, please?
    I remember when I was 2, my aunt would play old 45s on a beat up old record player. This player's power was more than a little inconsistent, and I could always tell when the songs were even a little off pitch. Nothing obvious, like in the movies or something. Just a little "off".

    I used to say, "It's broken. You need to baby it!", because "babying" something was something I heard my dad say.

    She had NO idea what I was talking about, since the player sounded fine to her.

    Speaking of my dad, he's a professional musician, and by the time I was 4, through him, I was getting asked to sing at various music fairs around the state.

    At one point, somewhere between 4 and 5, I showed up to one of these, and the backing band had dutifully learned a number for me to sing. My dad was off doing something else while I warmed up with the band, but something was "off" and bothering me about the number. So in the way of a 4yo who hasn't learned any grace or tact, I told the band they were "doing it wrong".

    They chuckled at my (tiny) balls for this, but around that point, my dad, who had come in sometime during the warmup, stepped up told them that the original recording was in Ab, not A.

    "The kid can tell the difference?"

    "Unfortunately, yes."


    So my dad had a talk with me, and convinced me that it was okay to sing it a little different this time, and that it would help the band.

    That was also one of my early experiences in musical compromise, and I'm grateful to my dad for teaching me that.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    Just curious. Are you referring to absolute pitch? Can you sing an "A" anywhere anytime from memory?
    sure, any single note or notes making up a chord. but that doesn't automatically make me a good musician, LOL!
    Last edited by patskywriter; 10-27-2011 at 10:47 PM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I think you are describing relative pitch, as are some others.
    I have never performed with sheet music, charts, or fake book, and I routinely play songs I've never heard before with people I've just met on stage. Being able to do that has nothing to do with perfect pitch, it's about being a musician.
    no, i'm talking about perfect pitch. i know the difference between that and relative pitch. my mom was a music teacher and had excellent relative pitch. she explained the difference to me.

    i think we're talking about two different things re: playing with others. i'm not talking about catching on immediately, which is what i think you're talking about. being a musician doesn't automatically lead to the ability to identify notes without prompts or hints. i'm talking about knowing without looking at anyone else or touching the guitar and knowing what key the song is in. i was describing that experience and comparing it to other guitar players who subtly slide around a bit while trying to figure out the key.

    i think that having perfect pitch or relative pitch is equally good. playing in the right key is fine, but having perfect pitch doesn't always lead to playing well in the right key, LOL.
    Last edited by patskywriter; 10-27-2011 at 11:02 PM.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by patskywriter
    sure, any single note or notes making up a chord. but that doesn't automatically make me a good musician, LOL!
    Sounds like you're referring to relative pitch, not absolute/perfect pitch.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    Sounds like you're referring to relative pitch, not absolute/perfect pitch.
    wow, i know it's rude to call people stupid, but … oh well, maybe you're just slow in catching on. o_O

    there's no reason to keep arguing about it. it is what it is, and it's really not that big a deal. i'm done on this subject.

  23. #22

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    I am someone who is in the camp that pauln referred to, a musician who over time developed the ability to first hear chords and later notes at pitch.
    I wasn't born with this ability. Sometimes I hear a song and I have to hear the context to confirm what I'm hearing.
    I like to refer to what I have as "imperfect pitch" because I can't hear all things at all times.

    My question to EightString, patskywriter and any other perfect pitch able members;

    How does the factor of memory play into this? What length of note series can you retain and replay?
    I guess the density of the harmonies and or the quantity of contrapuntal movement going on plays into this as well.
    How much can you remember if you listen to 8 bars of an orchestra or big band?
    How does the speed of the phrase being played affect your ability to retain the total music?

    Thanks

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by patskywriter
    no, i'm talking about perfect pitch. i know the difference between that and relative pitch. my mom was a music teacher and had excellent relative pitch. she explained the difference to me.

    ...

    i'm talking about knowing without looking at anyone else or touching the guitar and knowing what key the song is in.

    i was describing that experience and comparing it to other guitar players who subtly slide around a bit while trying to figure out the key.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    Sounds like you're referring to relative pitch, not absolute/perfect pitch.
    She's clearly talking about perfect/absolute pitch... why are you and Pauln doubting her? What she wrote is very clear.

    She comes from a musical family, she's had it as long as she can remember (having it as long as she can remember is consistent with perfect pitch but not consistent with relative pitch)... she know's what perfect pitch is.
    Last edited by fep; 10-28-2011 at 09:55 AM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    She's clearly talking about perfect/absolute pitch... why are you and Pauln doubting her? What she wrote is very clear.
    fep: I'm not trying to argue or stir up anything. To me there are doubts about what she really means. I'm just trying to get to the crux of the issue. She seems (to me) to refer to pitch as it relates to other notes and chords, etc. She refers to "any note or notes making up a chord." I have a friend who I gig with from time to time. She was born with absolute pitch. If she walked into the room and you asked her to sing any given note without any context or point of reference, she would name and sing the note 100% on pitch with perfect intonation. This is a blessing and a curse for her, as she has told me many times, because whenever she is playing on an unfamiliar piano, she is frustrated if there's even slight inconsistencies. The same is true when playing with other musicians who are even slightly out of tune--especially violin players who don't have perfect intonation.

  26. #25

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    Whatwisdom... I took piano lessons from this woman....

    Jaeryoung Lee | Gratis muziek, tourneedata, foto's, video's

    Check out her tunes, I particularly like the tune Fronk.

    Anyways, she has perfect pitch... you can hit tone clusters with two hands and and a foot on the piano and she'll quickly tell you every note you covered. People with relative pitch just can't do that... and yes she can sing any pitch without reference, it's really easy for her. She's an incredible musician. Her only issue with perfect pitch is she can't seem to turn it off and she's constantly transcribing/notating music in her head when listening to music. She can't seem to relax and just enjoy music in the way that someone without her skills can.

    In my ear training class there was a student with perfect pitch. It made her kind of lazy in learning relative pitch, because she could do everything the class required with her perfect pitch.

    For instance when we were drilling chord qualities, the teacher might play a Min-maj7 chord in 2nd inversion, us non perfect pitchers would try to know the chord by just hearing the overall quality, right or wrong we would quickly answer.

    She, on the other hand, would identify each note that was played and then spell it out in her head and then use theory to determine the quality... D F# Bb G... that spells a Gminmaj7 in 2nd inversion. For this particular drill she was the slowest in the class... but very accurate (she always got the pitches correct but sometimes would get crossed up in the spelling/theory).

    But when it came to music dictation she was 100% accurate and extremely fast.

    BTW, both of these women are Korean, it's pretty common for Korean musicians to have perfect pitch.