Discussion on perfect pitch

[EightString]

I am someone who is in the camp that pauln referred to, a musician who over time developed the ability to first hear chords and later notes at pitch.
I wasn't born with this ability. Sometimes I hear a song and I have to hear the context to confirm what I'm hearing.
I like to refer to what I have as "imperfect pitch" because I can't hear all things at all times.

My question to EightString, patskywriter and any other perfect pitch able members;

How does the factor of memory play into this? What length of note series can you retain and replay?
I guess the density of the harmonies and or the quantity of contrapuntal movement going on plays into this as well.
How much can you remember if you listen to 8 bars of an orchestra or big band?
How does the speed of the phrase being played affect your ability to retain the total music?

Thanks

For me, absolute (perfect) pitch doesn't make my brain a digital MIDI recorder, where I have perfect random-access recall of every note value. However, it DOES help in the sense that my ability to hear and retain complex music in my head is heightened by having consistent pitch memory.

I do suffer a bit from what fep was describing, the (sometimes) inability to "turn of" my inner analyst when listening to music. For instance, I can't "get romantic" with music in the background unless it is VERY VERY simple. Otherwise, my brain is automatically drawn to the music.

I also can't do any "mental" work, such as engineering, etc, if music is playing in the office. It's not the noise that's distracting. It's the complexity.

No such thing as "background music" in my life, for the most part.

However, I'm not sure that's an effect of perfect pitch. I've been analyzing music since I was a child, so much so that it has become a habit. In fact, when I'm analyzing music, my abilities with relative pitch come into play much more than absolute pitch.

But I HAVE to use relative pitch, because as fep suggested, my reaction times in coming up with melodies, chords, etc., using absolute pitch would be too slow for any real-time work. I couldn't imagine reacting and interacting in a live context if I thought of every note and chord based on absolute values.

Thank goodness my dad worked with me from an early age, developing my ear for harmony, chord structure, melody, etc, and he started me right away with the Roman numeral system. It made all the difference in the world in how I approach music.

Bottom line is, maybe I DO have a "tape recorder" function in a way, since I can easily "play back" complex music in my head. However, I'm never really actively saying, "That chord is an A, C, E, and Bb."

I just hear it as a ?m7 chord, relative to whatever else is going on.

[pauln]

EightString, what you just described is relative pitch, not perfect pitch.

"I just hear it as a ?m7 chord, relative to whatever else is going on."

That is relative pitch right there.

Being able to hold and hear complex passages in mind is not perfect pitch.

And "...never really actively saying, "That chord is an A, C, E, and Bb."" does not sound like perfect pitch.

The uncontrollable mental analysis of music making it a distraction that will not subside into the background is just being a musician.

For those asking why perfect pitch claims are being questioned, this is why. When specif answers are given like these they point to relative pitch and the general characteristics of just being a fine musician, not perfect pitch. Hence the interesting and confusing discussions in this thread so far...

[JakeAcci]

You guys see that movie Fever Pitch? It might clear up a lot of the confusion here.

[mr. beaumont]

It's remarkable where "perfect pitch" discussions end up going on internet forums. And it almost always gets ugly.

[pauln]

Mr B, this is a fine discussion, nothing ugly.

[mr. beaumont]

I dunno...I saw some things in the middle I didn't like.

Seems like stuff like that happens on internet forums when Perfect Pitch comes up. Just something I noticed. Carry on.

[JakeAcci]

Jeff I think people who claim to see questionable posts in threads about perfect pitch are, most of the time, actually seeing questionable posts in threads about relative pitch.

[EightString]

EightString, what you just described is relative pitch, not perfect pitch.

"I just hear it as a ?m7 chord, relative to whatever else is going on."

That is relative pitch right there.

Being able to hold and hear complex passages in mind is not perfect pitch.

And "...never really actively saying, "That chord is an A, C, E, and Bb."" does not sound like perfect pitch.

The uncontrollable mental analysis of music making it a distraction that will not subside into the background is just being a musician.

For those asking why perfect pitch claims are being questioned, this is why. When specif answers are given like these they point to relative pitch and the general characteristics of just being a fine musician, not perfect pitch. Hence the interesting and confusing discussions in this thread so far...

Yes, I KNOW I was describing relative pitch, which I DO USE IN MY DAILY MUSICAL LIFE.

In my case, absolute pitch and relative pitch ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

I can name any note/chord played for me by letter name(s) WITHOUT external reference, and can even sing any note you name WITHOUT external reference. Classic definition of absolute (perfect) pitch.

But I can ALSO name heard pitches/chords, etc., relative to one another, or sing/play any passage using relative intervals. This relative pitch is more useful to me daily, but does NOT negate the fact that I also possess perfect pitch.

Mods, can we get a :facepalm: smiley up in this joint?

[Astronomer]

I used to claim that I had perfect pitch to impress my other musician friends in school. Tbh, I don't really know what constitutes perfect pitch anymore. All I know is that when it comes to single note recognition (no intervals) or if asked to hum a certain pitch without a reference, I can do this fairly well. It's like I have a "note bank" in my mind where I draw from to remember what the specific pitch sounds like; then, I simply move that note to the right octave. Sometimes, extreme octave ranges mess me up. For example, I'd have trouble discerning the lowest pitch on a piano just from listening. But anyway, I noticed that while it's helpful to have this for transcribing and improvisation purposes, I think relative pitch is more important skill for a musician to have (which is something I'm still working on).

[bako]

I think that the ability to hear and comprehend the musical sounds around us is multi dimensional.

Absolute pitch is one aspect
Relative pitch is another
Recognizing obvious and subtle aspects of form and development
Dynamics
Hearing tone and articulations and how it blends into the band
Hearing rhythmic subdivisions
Hearing beat placement
Hearing counter melodies and rhythms
Hearing what is not being played
Hearing alternate paths to a common destination
Recognizing elements of style
Etc.........

Some things will come easier to certain individuals. That is fantastic.
As EightString and patskywriter indicate, absolute pitch is not the end of the story.
As improvising musicians, it is worth the effort to improve our ability to hear, comprehend and respond.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I found a copy of David Burge's perfect pitch course lying around at a church a few weeks ago. I listened to it for a little while, read some discussion on here from a few years back, read the amazon.com reviews (of which I'm in complete agreement with the negative ones), and finally, found the wikipedia article fep referenced. If you're like me, and have always been curious about this one, let me go ahead and burst your bubble. It's really pretty bad. I think you could really waste hours of your life for almost zero results with it.

Sad, really. I'd love to be able to develop absolute pitch.

[whatswisdom]

My car horn is Ab

[cosmic gumbo]

Doing a gig at the Shady Lady one night, this drunk moron kept yelling at the band to play Freebird. After the umpteenth time, I grabbed a clam fritter and beaned him right in the head with it. Now that was a perfect pitch.

[Astronomer]

Doing a gig at the Shady Lady one night, this drunk moron kept yelling at the band to play Freebird. After the umpteenth time, I grabbed a clam fritter and beaned him right in the head with it. Now that was a perfect pitch.

Well done~

[cosmic gumbo]

Doing a gig at the Shady Lady one night, this drunk moron kept yelling at the band to play Freebird. After the umpteenth time, I grabbed a clam fritter and beaned him right in the head with it. Now that was a perfect pitch.

The guy gave out a little yelp that sounded like Gb below middle C...

[medblues]

I don't think I have perfect pitch. I am very interested in the phenomenon and I did some reading on this over the years. My understanding is:

Native talent (genetics ? and/or something else that happens very very early in life) is necessary but NOT SUFFICIENT. So, one might have the fundamental hardware for perfect pitch but if it is not trained well by the teenage years (12-15ish) one might end up not having perfect pitch. So there is a brain developmental window during which more refining of the hardware is required. If this window is missed, perfect pitch is not attained. So it is not nature OR nurture, it is nature AND nurture.

Another interesting suggestion from the research is as people with perfect pitch age, their perfect pitch tends to get sloppier.

It is true that there are variations of the definition in studies leading to different numbers for prevalence of perfect pitch in the population but the numbers are still very low even among professional musicians. Obviously, when the research is being done, there is a selection bias of who participates in the research, this bias can be decreased (give people large cash to participate :-) but not eliminated.

[JakeAcci]

Is there any practical issue that a musician can resolve with perfect pitch ability that he or she couldn't resolve with highly-tuned relative pitch abilities?

[medblues]

Whatever practical use a pitch reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner etc) has, s/he can substitute for that.

Someone with perfect pitch I knew could pick perfectly ripe watermelons based on the pitch of the thump when you hit them, that's a very practical skill to have :-)) Impossible with relative pitch (you can't carry around a reference watermelon to compare) :-))

They will also have a much easier time playing learning instruments that are "fretless" with continuous pitch change (what is the proper general musical term for those "non-discrete" ?). People with excellent relative pitch will still tend to "drift" especially if they are playing unaccompanied (bass solos of some very good jazz players for instance).

[papaj77]

Perfect Pitch: When you throw a viola into the toilet and it doesn't hit the sides.

[EightString]

Whatever practical use a pitch reference (tuning fork, electronic tuner etc) has, s/he can substitute for that.

Someone with perfect pitch I knew could pick perfectly ripe watermelons based on the pitch of the thump when you hit them, that's a very practical skill to have :-)) Impossible with relative pitch (you can't carry around a reference watermelon to compare) :-))

They will also have a much easier time playing learning instruments that are "fretless" with continuous pitch change (what is the proper general musical term for those "non-discrete" ?). People with excellent relative pitch will still tend to "drift" especially if they are playing unaccompanied (bass solos of some very good jazz players for instance).

As a singer, I can come in on or before the downbeat of a song without having to have someone "give me my note". A cappella intros, same thing, I can sing a little bit by myself before the instrumentation comes in and it's always "on".

A related skill, I never "drift" when I'm singing unaccompanied. I can sing a song in Bb for 10 minutes, and when I'm done, I'm STILL in Bb.

Secondly, I don't have to fish around on my fretboard when "jumping in" on a song where no one has called the key. Without even looking at anyone else' fingerings, I already know where to go. VERY practical to have the very first chords or notes always be "right".

The only thing I have to be careful about is, I do play in a lot of popular music/rock situations where the instruments are detuned a half step, so I have to be careful not to "hear" an Ab, and then by habit, incorrectly play an Ab position on a detuned guitar, when the "A" position would be correct in that context.

But once I'm "up and running" with a song, I tend to turn off absolute pitch and rely on relative pitch. THAT'S what allows me to easily play songs in any key requested, because I hear all my chord/scale changes in that relative mode.

I can't imagine that absolute pitch would help me much there.

[medblues]

Thanks for your experiential view which trumps the theoretical.

As a singer, I can come in on or before the downbeat of a song without having to have someone "give me my note". A cappella intros, same thing, I can sing a little bit by myself before the instrumentation comes in and it's always "on".

A related skill, I never "drift" when I'm singing unaccompanied. I can sing a song in Bb for 10 minutes, and when I'm done, I'm STILL in Bb.

Secondly, I don't have to fish around on my fretboard when "jumping in" on a song where no one has called the key. Without even looking at anyone else' fingerings, I already know where to go. VERY practical to have the very first chords or notes always be "right".

The only thing I have to be careful about is, I do play in a lot of popular music/rock situations where the instruments are detuned a half step, so I have to be careful not to "hear" an Ab, and then by habit, incorrectly play an Ab position on a detuned guitar, when the "A" position would be correct in that context.

But once I'm "up and running" with a song, I tend to turn off absolute pitch and rely on relative pitch. THAT'S what allows me to easily play songs in any key requested, because I hear all my chord/scale changes in that relative mode.

I can't imagine that absolute pitch would help me much there.