frustrated with sight reading!

**CarolM** · 05-11-2011, 12:57 PM

I've returned to guitar for the umpteenth time and to get myself going again I took a beginner guitar class, pretty boring except that it's forcing me to learn to sight read, finally. I figure it's good for my brain, if nothing else.

Anyway, this morning I had to play Greensleeves @ 70 bpm I think 8 times to get through it without screwing up. It's all first-position stuff, and just quarter notes. I am trying not to look at my hands b/c I lose my place in the music. I am using a metronome. It's just unreal how I can keep messing up, suddenly "forgetting" about open string notes like B and going for the next fretted note, or reaching too far for the A or E..sheesh...

All I want to know is, is this normal? I've gone through this before, with piano, and sitting there trying to decipher something with the teacher watching really flustered me.

Stringbean · 05-11-2011, 01:09 PM

break it down to one or two measures at a time. it may seem boring and beginnerish but try to remember the huge history and value of each note. also think about the near miraculously efficient notation system that has been developed just for you! be thankful!

**CarolM** · 05-11-2011, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Stringbean

break it down to one or two measures at a time. it may seem boring and beginnerish but try to remember the huge history and value of each note. also think about the near miraculously efficient notation system that has been developed just for you! be thankful!

Thanks but I am not resisting the idea of reading at all. I just wondered if I was especially stupid.

Stringbean · 05-11-2011, 01:13 PM

well, yeah probably

**CarolM** · 05-11-2011, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by Stringbean

well, yeah probably

figured at much! but I will work more on breaking it down. I guess it's good to do things that make you feel retarded.

**Kman** · 05-11-2011, 01:20 PM

Reading is a skill that you develop over time. You have to do it every day. There are no shortcuts. Even after you reach a certain level of proficeincy have to maintain it or you will lose it. Don't get frustrated because it's well worth the time spent. Even if you don't think you are getting better you are little by little.

**vittigo** · 05-11-2011, 01:24 PM

Hi, i remember when i started to sight read. I was playing guitar for 10 years then, and was quite advanced technically. I never need to sight read before (i have transcribed all to tabs in Guitar Pro software). So i was so frustrated not to be able to play simple melody in tempo of a turtle.

But gradually it improved, and now i can read a-vista a lead sheets. This helped me a lot:

1. if you mess thing up @70bpm it means it is to fast for your skill, maybe You should try @50 and build Your speed from there?
2. Try to learn one key in one position at a time. Start with C major in open position, after You learn it, then move to G major in 3rd postion, then maybe an F major in 5th position and so on. I found that easier than all keys in one postion (eventually all notes messed up and i didn't know which are in which key)

3. I've read a lot of classical music, and step after step i begun recognize some cliches (or licks) before time (and later chords). This helped me to read one or to bars before what i was actually playing.

Don't give a faith, i think it's only matter of time. Keep practice as much as You can a try to do this regular basis, and i'm sure - You will succeed

Stringbean · 05-11-2011, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by CarolM

figured at much! .

**bako** · 05-11-2011, 01:28 PM

For learning, uncovering our weakest links is a crucial step to growth.

Break it down.

You mention the need to look at the neck.
Try playing with your eyes closed (not for sightreading).

I am guessing that knowing the fingerboard is an issue.

How fast is your recognition of notes on the staff?
Can you look at a group of notes and understand what is going on?
Same with reading rhythm?
Coordination between hands?

Find the issues unique to you and work on them.

**whatswisdom** · 05-11-2011, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Kman

Reading is a skill that you develop over time. You have to do it every day. There are no shortcuts.

Fully agree. Hang in, dude! Any don't let any idiotic negative comments into your space. You ain't stupid. Reading ain't easy for adults to learn. That's why my 7-yr-old is learning right now. No problem for him. Keep with it and read something different every day and you'll keep improving. It's well worth the effort!

**Tommycorsica** · 05-11-2011, 01:54 PM

I'm right there with you. I'm solid with the jazz scales, all the chord extensions, all the substitutions, i can sing a dozen or more jazz standards and have memorized chord melodies to half of them. i can play the blues in my sleep -- jazz or delta style.
But my teacher has me learning to read and it's like my brain is succumbing to Alzheimer's. "I know that's an F, why can't I play F? Why did I suddenly stop and linger on that 8th note in mid-measure? Why does my wife cringe when i start counting 'One-ee-and-ah-two-ee-and-ah...?'"

I find consolation and hope in the words of my teach, a New York City pro in all styles, all genres: "Reading music is a very fragile thing. You have to keep at it and truly nurture it. And if you don't pay attention, it can slip away."

**tytlfamily** · 05-11-2011, 01:55 PM

Ifeel your pain. Vowed the other day give up tabs and learn to read also. I feel exactly like you at this point. Hang in there.!
Tytlfamily

**monk** · 05-11-2011, 03:26 PM

Leave the metronome out until you become thoroughly familiar with note location and can feel the duration of the notes naturally. Then add the metronome back into your practice.

**NSJ** · 05-11-2011, 04:56 PM

Forget about thinking "two measures" at a time--think of the SMALLEST individual increment-first note to 2nd note--practice the shit out of this--forwards and backwards-- until it is flawless and can be executed easily. Then do notes 2 and 3 in the same manner. Then back up the truck and do all the notes up to the point. do not move on until everything to that point is flawless.

tedious? yes!!!!
Necessary? I can attest to this

Take nothing for granted. progress is slow and steady.

**djangoles** · 05-11-2011, 05:28 PM

My sight reading has always been pretty weak.....but I can tell you that with all the transcribing I've been doing in the past few months, my sight reading has improved greatly.

**Dad3353** · 05-11-2011, 08:33 PM

Good evening...
I'll give my little tip again, for what it's worth...
Start with the last bar of the piece. Once that's down pat, start from the preceding bar (so last two bars...); continue incrementing bar by bar until you are starting 'from the top'.
This way, what you've already acquired is more and more familiar as you progress through the piece. As you play, you are moving further into the 'comfort zone'. Try it and see..?

Hope this helps...

**vittigo** · 05-12-2011, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Dad3353

Good evening...
I'll give my little tip again, for what it's worth...
Start with the last bar of the piece. Once that's down pat, start from the preceding bar (so last two bars...); continue incrementing bar by bar until you are starting 'from the top'.
This way, what you've already acquired is more and more familiar as you progress through the piece. As you play, you are moving further into the 'comfort zone'. Try it and see..?

Hope this helps...

It's really interesting perspective. Never thought of learning tune that way. I'll have to try it with some arrangements i've to learn by heart.

However - I don't know is this really helps in sight-reading (which i think as, be able to read on a spot - a vista). But maybe this works? Who knows?

**Kojo27** · 05-12-2011, 03:21 AM

When students go to Berklee School of Music, they HAVE to learn to read - or they're out. And I think the main way they learn, and the main way I learned, is by working with Bill Leavitt's A Modern Method for Guitar, Volume 1. This stuff is dry and boring maybe, but you must remember: it's teaching you to read music for guitar. Leavitt wrote this music as a means of teaching students to read in the first five positions, in one semester. Put in the work and the results are guaranteed.

Greensleeves is a beautiful song, but it wasn't written for teaching people to read guitar music! The exercises in Leavitt's books WERE. Each builds on the previous one, and the first one is ridiculously easy. Half notes, I think.

Volume 1 now comes (optionally) with a DVD - 14 hours of a Berklee instructor, playing the duets with you, so you always have someone to urge you on. A great investment, and you WILL learn to read. The DVD version is about $23 at Amazon. Here's the link, hope this helps you finally nail it! Amazon.com: A Modern Method for Guitar - Volume 1: Book/DVD-ROM Pack (Method (Berklee Press)) (9780876390696): William Leavitt, Larry Baione: Books

KJ

**23skidoo** · 05-12-2011, 06:42 AM

I've been using simple piano arrangements of kids' music and Christmas songs..... recognizable tunes, in concert pitch, easy stuff to help get the fretboard down. You can also google 'flute sight reading music free' and get some pretty interesting things as well.

I also agree with vittigo. Although Dad's method is a great idea for memorizing a tune (and one I will start using) as soon as you're familiar with a measure of music, you're not sight reading it. Stumble through it, move on to something else....

**Flyin' Brian** · 05-12-2011, 07:18 AM

Yes you need to know the fingerboard. This is from a video made years ago but it makes sense.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 05-12-2011, 09:04 AM

I think it may be important to point out that there's a difference between practicing basic reading skills on an instrument and practicing sight reading. When you first start out, I think there is a lot of value in playing through pieces repeatedly on whatever stringsets are comfortable. Until you feel really comfortable, start with pieces from the front of the book and work forward. You should feel really confident and warmed up by the time you start working on reading string sets or positions which are less familiar.

You learned to read text this way. You sounded out individual words one letter at a time, and you probably read the same stories over and over. There is value in reading things which you already know. You make connections between what things sound like and what they look like.

Reading "at sight", on the other hand, is a completely separate skill. This is where you need the metronome, music which isn't familiar, and the discipline to not stop and practice, but just keeping moving forward. There are some good reading study books for guitar which will give you material to work through for actual sight reading.

If you're new to reading (period), it might be helpful to break things up into "reading" practice and "sight reading" practice. Work on sight reading things which are somewhat close to your ability level. Work on "just plain reading" things that are somewhat beyond your ability. This could be certain strings if you're a beginner, new positions, notated chord reading, or classical contrapuntal music. In studying any other instrument where reading is emphasized (much more so than guitar), working through difficult to read (or play) pieces is a often a separate skill from sight-reading practice.

I have two beginner band students in my house and they practice, practice, practice line 42 until they've got it. After 2 or 3 years they know how to sight read pretty well too.

If someone put music in front of me written for a guitar tuned to open C, it's not going to help to set the metronome to 60 bpm and tell me to "keep going no matter what". I've got to learn to read before I can learn to read "at sight".

**Kman** · 05-12-2011, 09:35 AM

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by 23skidoo

I've been using simple piano arrangements of kids' music and Christmas songs..... recognizable tunes, in concert pitch, easy stuff to help get the fretboard down. You can also google 'flute sight reading music free' and get some pretty interesting things as well.

This is a great idea. I did this a lot when I got serious about reading. I would take easy piano music and use a multi-track recorder to practice reading through it. I would read the bass clef on one track, melody on another track and harmony or counterpoint on another track. It's a really fun way to practice sight reading.

**whatswisdom** · 05-12-2011, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

And I think the main way they learn, and the main way I learned, is by working with Bill Leavitt's A Modern Method for Guitar, Volume 1.

You also need to study the Melodic Rhythms as well as the 2-Volume Reading Studies: Volume 1 = positions I - VII. Volume 2 = positions VIII - XII. The Melodic Rhythms book is invaluable for anyone learning to read--especially the skill of sight-reading. With these three books you keep moving forward; look backwards and you defeat the purpose of the studies. http://www.berkleemusic.com/store/pr...er%5fcode=2285

**CarolM** · 05-12-2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Tommycorsica

I'm right there with you. I'm solid with the jazz scales, all the chord extensions, all the substitutions, i can sing a dozen or more jazz standards and have memorized chord melodies to half of them. i can play the blues in my sleep -- jazz or delta style.
But my teacher has me learning to read and it's like my brain is succumbing to Alzheimer's. "I know that's an F, why can't I play F? Why did I suddenly stop and linger on that 8th note in mid-measure?

LOL, you got it. That's the feeling right there. Arrggh! My note recognition is good from piano and voice training, but note-to-hands is shaky. But that's exactly why I took the guitar class, to learn this. I did slow down the metronome...

But last night I realized my form had deteriorated, my left hand twisting around so that my fingering was off-kilter where before it easy. You don't get much personal attention to that kind of thing in a class.

**whatswisdom** · 05-12-2011, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by PaulD

One of the things I did was to take any written music I could get my hands on and play all the notes as quarter notes, regardless of what their actual value was, at a slow enough tempo where I could do it with the fewest mistakes, in whatever position I wanted to learn better. This helped me learn the relationship of the pitches on the neck. Then I would practice reading the rhythms as a separate exercise, playing them with just one pitch.

Right on! Keep it simple.