How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[Christian Miller]

He had to add fingering numbers, string numbers and fingerboard diagrams to the stave, in order to teach the reader. At least he stopped before adding photographs of awkward hand positions. Notation has its limitations.

Well, you got to ease them in. In the long run if that stuff is superfluous if you know what you are doing. I mean I prefer not to have fingerings myself by and large, but this is a beginners book…

Anyway, I refer you to the first sentence. You don’t get tab in jazz charts. There’s not much else to say.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think it's all that difficult to learn to read standard notation.

it’s not. Guitarists like to moan haha.

if I’m to be fair I would say guitarists lack a reading culture. There’s not much reason unless you play jazz or classical to read. If you play either of those, it’s helpful.

[rpjazzguitar]

In big band, most of the time the guitar is reading chord symbols and comping.

Meanwhile, the horns are reading single notes and, if they aren't sure of the rhythm, they get instant feedback from the other horns.

That adds up over time.

Then, suddenly, there's a "guitar feature" and the guitarist has to read like a horn. Or it may just be that the guitar is functioning for a stretch as another horn (playing as if a horn).

Then, the guitarist is supposed to read as well as a horn player, even though he's had less practice.

And, if the guitarist and horn player each started music in 4th grade, the horn was in school band reading notes while the guitarist was strumming chords or copying rock leads. What elementary or middle school guitar player is reading single notes as much as a horn?

Those SOB's SHOULD provide Tab in the Big Band charts. Now that I've thought about this situation, it's an outrage.

[blackcat]

it’s not. Guitarists like to moan haha.

if I’m to be fair I would say guitarists lack a reading culture. There’s not much reason unless you play jazz or classical to read. If you play either of those, it’s helpful.

Which surely raises the question of whether or not tab-reading guitarists should be banned from all jazz-related material. Permanently

[Tal_175]

Which surely raises the question of whether or not tab-reading guitarists should be banned from all jazz-related material. Permanently

Or maybe tab reading guitarist can learn to not see musicians too hierarchically and try not to feel criticized so easily.

[blackcat]

Or maybe tab reading guitarist can learn to not see musicians too hierarchically and try not to feel criticized so easily.

I'm neutral in all this, but maybe the notation reading camp should stop feeling so defensive? On the other hand, if they didn't, this lovely dialogue ( already one of the longer running threads on here surely? ) would not have grown legs/wings.

David

[Tal_175]

I'm neutral in all this, but maybe the notation reading camp should stop feeling so defensive? On the other hand, if they didn't, this lovely dialogue ( already one of the longer running threads on here surely? ) would not have grown legs/wings.

David

I don't see an objective discussion about the advantages of notation reading defensive. But I find titles such as "how frowned upon is guitar tablature?" or finding leaps when none was made etc. a bit on the prickly side. But it's all good fun as you say.

[blackcat]

I don't see an objective discussion about the advantages of notation reading defensive. But I find titles such as "how frowned upon is guitar tablature?" or finding leaps when none was made etc. a bit on the prickly side. But it's all good fun as you say.

Suitably prickled!

[Tal_175]

Suitably prickled!

Indeed

[blackcat]

Indeed

Quoi?

[Tal_175]

Quoi?

I'm not doubting those who feel prickly also feel that it's suitable.

[Christian Miller]

Which surely raises the question of whether or not tab-reading guitarists should be banned from all jazz-related material. Permanently

Eh? Why’s that? Do you get some sort of frisson from being disapproved of? ;-)

Sorry I mean :-<

What you do in the privacy of your own practice room is up to you. Beyond that, what’s important as a jazz guitarist is to have the skills to play jazz with other musicians, which means working on your ears and probably your reading too, which takes a lot of practice.

Bearing in mind the sheer amount of time I seem need to throw at these things to get even vaguely good at them, the question i asked myself a while back is if I want to get better at those things when my time is quite limited, do i really have time to be looking at tabs?

[Christian Miller]

That said there’s definitely some stuff you need tab is good for. I don’t disagree that it’s handy for anything very dependent on guitar fingerings; for instance I think it would be perverse to avoiding using tab in certain situations.

To take a recent example, looking into Allan Holdsworth, his music is so guitar oriented in terms of fingering and so on, i think avoiding tab when communicating what he is doing would be silly.

otoh if you need tab to tell you where to play a melody or a chord - you need to get past that as quickly as possible. It’s a phase beginners go through and means you aren’t yet up and running.

That gives me an idea. Note that in classical guitar music etc they give you the fingering if it’s not obvious and then it’s assumed you will use it again next time that material comes up. One could use a supplemental tab staff where it could be helpful in the same way perhaps in teaching materials. In this way you are using tab for what it’s good for while making sure the student is also looking at the dots.

That said tab in this way wouldn’t totally obviate clutter on the music. Some of the indications such as which fingers to use are not specified in tab at all.

[blackcat]

Eh? Why’s that? Do you get some sort of frisson from being disapproved of? ;-)

Sorry I mean :-<

What you do in the privacy of your own practice room is up to you. Beyond that, what’s important as a jazz guitarist is to have the skills to play jazz with other musicians, which means working on your ears and probably your reading too, which takes a lot of practice.

Bearing in mind the sheer amount of time I seem need to throw at these things to get even vaguely good at them, the question i asked myself a while back is if I want to get better at those things when my time is quite limited, do i really have time to be looking at tabs?

Frisson it is! Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier in this never ending thread I personally learned to read many years ago when tackling clarinet and sax. Then a big gap whilst life ( divorce, career, business and more ) took over before re-commencing guitar. Blues it was and ears were key. Not much call for notation in the circles in which I moved at that time. By now, some/many years had passed and by the time jazz grabbed me by the throat reading skills were a tad rusty. However,Tab for rapid assimilation with the rythmic devices inherent in notation printed above seem to cover it for me - that and ears. At this stage/age, I have enough to concentrate on without embarking on polishing reading skills. I speak personally.

As for pro's working together, we went to see/hear my former French guitar teacher ( semi-pro, but played with Petrucciani and S.Stitt + others when living near the site of the Vienne Festival ) in a scratch combo ( bass player from Tacoma on tour + french drummer ) supporting this guy: Videos — Kareem Kandi + a local big band tenor player. Charts only came out for three original numbers by my friend Alain. It worked perfectly well - for over two hours.

[Christian Miller]

I kind of read music for fun? It’s quite nice to dig something out of the dusty recesses of the 5th Ed Real Book that no one’s called since 1974 for example and pull it together on a DAW. Good practice too but actually enjoyable. There’s some fun tunes in there!

And you can then do it all again in bass clef :-)

Plus reading through classical pieces is nice too.

tbh rather do that after a hard day of telling kids not to drop picks in their sound holes all day then just blow on rhythm changes or something these days.

[Christian Miller]

Frisson it is! Seriously though, as I mentioned earlier in this never ending thread I personally learned to read many years ago when tackling clarinet and sax. Then a big gap whilst life ( divorce, career, business and more ) took over before re-commencing guitar. Blues it was and ears were key. Not much call for notation in the circles in which I moved at that time. By now, some/many years had passed and by the time jazz grabbed me by the throat reading skills were a tad rusty. However,Tab for rapid assimilation with the rythmic devices inherent in notation printed above seem to cover it for me - that and ears. At this stage/age, I have enough to concentrate on without embarking on polishing reading skills. I speak personally.

As for pro's working together, we went to see/hear my former French guitar teacher ( semi-pro, but played with Petrucciani and S.Stitt + others when living near the site of the Vienne Festival ) in a scratch combo ( bass player from Tacoma on tour + french drummer ) supporting this guy: Videos — Kareem Kandi + a local big band tenor player. Charts only came out for three original numbers by my friend Alain. It worked perfectly well - for over two hours.

I notice that multi instrumentalists often seem to find the guitar hard to read notation on…

the quickest way fwiw is to learn the notes on the neck imo is to ensure you can play BAD DAD CABBAGE FACE in all octaves and positions of the neck, saying the the letters out loud as you play them. Then if you like, go around the cycle adding sharps or flats as necessary.

Also make sure you do it along the length of all six strings with one finger (or your nose) as applicable. Don’t be a position nerd (although consistent fingerings are helpful)

Fifteen minutes of that a day will LARN you.

TBH if you got the rhythmic reading down I think pitches aren’t that difficult. In any case the most important reading for jazz guitar is probably playing chord charts with notated rhythms. That’s 80-90% of big band reading tbh. Many teachers recommend Bellson for that, me included.

[blackcat]

I notice that multi instrumentalists often seem to find the guitar hard to read notation on…

the quickest way fwiw is to learn the notes on the neck imo is to ensure you can play BAD DAD CABBAGE FACE in all octaves and positions of the neck, saying the the letters out loud as you play them. Then if you like, go around the cycle adding sharps or flats as necessary.

Also make sure you do it along the length of all six strings with one finger (or your nose) as applicable. Don’t be a position nerd (although consistent fingerings are helpful)

Fifteen minutes of that a day will LARN you.

TBH if you got the rhythmic reading down I think pitches aren’t that difficult. In any case the most important reading for jazz guitar is probably playing chord charts with notated rhythms. That’s 80-90% of big band reading tbh. Many teachers recommend Bellson for that, me included.

If this represents closure then I can now cease to fret over keeping tabs on the thread

[blackcat]

If this represents closure then I can now cease to fret over keeping tabs on the thread

Of course, one could easily envisage a situation at some point in the future where Dirk is persuaded to form two entirely separate Forum groups - jazzguitar.be/forum/Notation and jazzguitar.be/forum/TAB

Was it Art Tatum who famously responded to the question re- 'Do you read music Mr Tatum?' - Lady, I hear/listen to it, I play it, but I sure as hell don't sit around reading it!

[Tal_175]

Of course, one could easily envisage a situation at some point in the future where Dirk is persuaded to form two entirely separate Forum groups - jazzguitar.be/forum/Notation and jazzguitar.be/forum/TAB

Was it Art Tatum who famously responded to the question re- 'Do you read music Mr Tatum?' - Lady, I hear/listen to it, I play it, but I sure as hell don't sit around reading it!

That post would've made sense had Art Tatum responded to the question "Do you read music Mr Tatum?", by saying "No, I read tabs.".

[blackcat]

That post would've made sense had Art Tatum responded to the question "Do you read music Mr Tatum?", by saying "No, I read tabs.".

We have to imagine that he did. Certainly no lack of facility on other fronts

[Christian Miller]

I’m not getting this idea that tabs has something to do with ears. Ears is ears. Notation is notation.

Musicians do develop the ability to audiate from notation, of course.

If someone has developed the ability to audiate pitches from tabs, fab. Most don’t I would say. I would imagine it’s more common to audiate music from notation, but I don’t really know, and I have no evidence of this.

[Christian Miller]

If this represents closure then I can now cease to fret over keeping tabs on the thread

you are probably bad, or something

[Tal_175]

We have to imagine that he did. Certainly no lack of facility on other fronts

Are you seriously suggesting that Art Tatum was a tab reader of sorts?

[Christian Miller]

Piano tab = staff notation?

[grahambop]

Art Tatum was blind in one eye, and severely impaired in the other. According to stuff I’ve read, he tried reading music with special glasses, then switched to using Braille music, but mostly he learned and played by ear.