What does Mark Levine mean by a triangle with a line under it?

[Ron Stern]

In the Jazz Theory Book, C (triangle) means C maj7. What is C (triangle-with-a-line-under-it) ?

E.g. p 50, figure 3-49

[FatJeff]

If I recall correctly, it's a minor-major seventh. A minor triad with the major (natural) seventh on top. Very dissonant, and very hip. This is the chord you get if you stack thirds of the ascending melodic minor ("jazz minor") scale, starting on the root.

[Banksia]

Sorry FJ, I'm not trying to go all "Kevin" on you but it's actually derived from the Harmonic Minor scale. (Although it does fit "jazz minor")

[FatJeff]

Sorry FJ, I'm not trying to go all "Kevin" on you but it's actually derived from the Harmonic Minor scale. (Although it does fit "jazz minor")

Does it really matter, since the 6th scale degree (which is the only difference between HM and MM) is not used in its construction? Anyway, not having studied the HM scale yet, I think of the mMaj7 as being derived from the MM scale. Convince me why I should change my thinking!

[Banksia]

Well, the purpose of the Harmonic Minor scale is "harmony" and, thus chord-building. We couldn't build chords from the Melodic Minor because we would have 2 different chords in some cases:

Using A Melodic Minor we would have E G# B (ascending) and E G B (descending) as our E chord. Tradiionally we hear E7 as a better resolution to Am than Em7. If we built our chords from A Harmonic Minor we would get that E7.

[FatJeff]

Well, the purpose of the Harmonic Minor scale is "harmony" and, thus chord-building. We couldn't build chords from the Melodic Minor because we would have 2 different chords in some cases:

Using A Melodic Minor we would have E G# B (ascending) and E G B (descending) as our E chord. Tradiionally we hear E7 as a better resolution to Am than Em7. If we built our chords from A Harmonic Minor we would get that E7.

You don't use the descending MM scale in jazz. You only use the ascending. But you know that, right? Perhaps I should have said "jazz minor," but I don't tend to use that term. When I say "melodic minor" I mean it in the sense of ascending-only, at least when I'm speaking jazz.

So I still stand by my original point - what's the difference?

[Banksia]

We'll stick to A minor(s)

Building chords from A Harmonic Minor:

ACE Am
BDF Bdim
CEG# Caug
DFA Dm
EC#BD E7
FAC Fmaj
G#BD G#dim

Building chords from A jazz minor:

ACE Am
BDF# Bm
CEG# Caug
DF#A D Maj and DF#AC D7
EG#BD E7
F#AC F#dim
G#BD G#dim

Now. traditionally, through Euro folk music, a standard Am progression would be Am-Dm-E7-Am. If you build your chords from jazz minor, where's your Dm? Where is your F Major, another common part of Am progressions.

So, the point I'm making is that, while you can play over an Am tune using any of the A minor scales, the chords are built from the Harmonic Minor scale.

Also, I wouldn't say we "never" use Melodic descending in jazz - we effectively use Am Melodic descending every time we play a C Major scale over Am.

[Reg]

Hey Jeff... no difference until you start pulling from the implied harmonic area. If you don't use anything except the actual chord spelled out... never a problem. But if your soloing or if your a little crazy like me and when your comping you use much more than what's notated... it makes a difference. I've never actually heard any one use the mythical version of MM... never heard Mark refer to the symbol as HM or MM. Next time I bump into him, I'll ask... Reg

[Reg]

Hey Banksia... nice explanation of implied harmonic areas. Usually in jazz we at least build chords up to the 7th, so as in your example the Bdim would be a Min7b5 and the Caug would be a Maj7#5... etc... better representation of implied source. But obviously not required. Your use of descending A mm could be example... but as I said I don't know of anyone thinking or explaining it that way. If I'm thinking of Cmaj as source for soloing on Amin. I would be thinking actual Ionian, Lydian or other collection of notes depending on which A min I'm developing or targeting, and usually am hearing the actual Cmaj as tonal center while I'm pulling from there. But conceptual I see your point very easily and maybe others hear it as you... if that's what your hearing.
Very easy to see how one might come up with that analysis after the fact...hm
Best Reg

[Banksia]

I've never actually heard any one use the mythical version of MM...

Surely you don't mean you've never heard anyone use the Melodic Minor (descending)? Melodic (descending) = Natural Minor.

Surely you're not saying you've never heard anybody use the Natural Minor scale?

You've never heard the song "Alone Together?"

[Stackabones]

Sorry FJ, I'm not trying to go all "Kevin" on you

[Aristotle]

Surely you don't mean you've never heard anyone use the Melodic Minor (descending)? Melodic (descending) = Natural Minor.

The only time I have heard sustained use of it, is when classical guitar students or classes practice the Segovia scales,* as written. That's it. I recommned not doing that. Either substitute JM and HM in Segovia scales, or practice alternating JM, HM and Dor to master the relevant 6th and 7th combos. The descending version of the so-called "classical" version is already practiced as the sixth mode of the major scale.

You've never heard the song "Alone Together?"

As an example of...one scale ascending and another descending? Heard the song. Can't here the split scales.

I don't even see how one can definitively say, like in Alone Together, when the line changes direction what is ascending or descending. Is that ascending to or ascending from? Take the end of this song, the melody descends from F to C#. That's the natural minor?

I think it will be virtually impossible to find a piece that conforms for even just 8 measures to the idea of ascending one way and descending another.

*For anyone who doesn't know, the Segovia scales are some two-octave and three-octave scale forms. The minor key forms are written as one scale ascending and the other desceding. This is the only sustained application of the idea I know of - but it is an excercise.

[Banksia]

As an example of...one scale ascending and another descending? Heard the song. Can't here the split scales.

I don't even see how one can definitively say, like in Alone Together, when the line changes direction what is ascending or descending. Is that ascending to or ascending from? Take the end of this song, the melody descends from F to C#. That's the natural minor?

I was replying to Reg's statement that he had never heard the descending part of the MM played in Jazz, as evidenced by the fact that I quoted his statement. At no point did I refer to the total MM(ascending and descending). In fact, I used the term MM(descending) every time as I recall.

The end of the song, with the C#, is an example of a traditional maxim in composition: never finish on a Minor chord. The composer Arhtur Schwartz, would have been aware of this because his career started on Broadway in the early 20s, when many of the players and composers were of recent European heritage.

[Banksia]

If I'm thinking of Cmaj as source for soloing on Amin. I would be thinking actual Ionian, Lydian or other collection of notes depending on which A min I'm developing or targeting, and usually am hearing the actual Cmaj as tonal center while I'm pulling from there. Reg

If you're think modal over an A min, why are you thinking C? Isn't that the opposite of "modal?" Modal thinking over any A chord should be based on A as the tonal centre, shouldn't it?

[Sailor]

I like this thread...classical guitar players, musicians, use MM ascending, raised 6&7, and descending, b6&7 in lots of songs. The jazz minor was new to me but really the chords we use come out of HM, like already stated.

In A minor I'm not thinking of "A" as the tonal center, really...I mean if A was the tonal center I would be thinking 3 #'s. A minor is still C to me, with a raised leading tone.

Sailor

[Aristotle]

I was replying to Reg's statement that he had never heard the descending part of the MM played in Jazz, as evidenced by the fact that I quoted his statement.

Sorry, I thought were suggesting the song as an example of what he never heard: a song with "one scale ascending and another descending." I never heard one either.

[ksjazzguitar]

Guys,

The whole "ascending" and "descending" MM thing in classical practice is just a guide to how the minor scale inflects in minor. It is not meant to be taken as literally as you guys seem to be taking it. There are plenty of examples in the classical literature of people using the ascending form in descent, usually because it is over dominant function. (So many of these anti-theory rants are just based on a misunderstanding. And for the record, in classical tonal theory, the natural, harmonic, and melodic were all essentially the same "scale," just different inflections of minor tonality - it's division into separate scales is a more modern thing.) You guys are reading way too much into the whole classical understanding of "melodic minor."

Additionally, it is never really used in that way in jazz. With a creative imagination, you can find some examples that seem like it, but I haven't seen any that conclusively do. (I'm sure someone can find one, but it is surely the exception. I could go into an explanation of why, but I'm sure people would complain of me hijacking the tread. We can start another thread if you want.) I like the term "jazz minor" because it avoids the confusion. But anyone using the term "melodic minor" in a jazz context should be understood to be referring to the ascending form only, regardless of what direction it goes. In jazz, we always think of the different inflections of minor as separate scales.

Peace,
Kevin

[Banksia]

Kevin I'm simply saying that the descending MM is an available tool for improvisation and, just because we call the ascending the "jazz minor" doesn't make it more or less exclusively "jazz."

Oddly enough, the guitarist I've heard with the most advanced use of Harmonic Minor is Yngwie Malmsteen, who has worked up a whole series of exercises to develop the use of the different modes of the HM.

I know what you mean about classical players as seeing all the minors as just one Minor Scale -for instance, all the A minor scales have the same key signature. I think the HM was devised because otherwise there was no way to include a Dom7 in the Minor keys.

If anyone wants an example of a song in A minor which uses all these variants, how about "Greensleeves?"

[Aristotle]

If anyone wants an example of a song in A minor which uses all these variants, how about "Greensleeves?"

Sorry, but I don't find any phrase descending as natural minor, which would be like A-G-F, instead (taking it as if in 6/8):
-meas 7-8, end of first phrase, descends B-G#-E, not B-G-E
-meas 16, descends C-B-A-G#-F# (looks like Jazz Minor)
-meas 10, descends G-F#-E, but that's no-fair as the chords are C-G, and one could argue temporary modulation

Also, there are phrases like:
measure 2: E-F#-E, or
measure 4: A-G#-A
This is what I meant by the difficulty in measuring direction. Depending on whether you look at the first two notes of the group, or the last two notes of the group, it either follows the supposed convention or it doesn't.

Bottom line: With no melody phrase going A-G-F, I don't even see how this piece could be considered a candidate for demonstrating the so-called "classical" Melodic Minor ascending one way, and descending another. It doesn't descend at all through the critical pathway.

[Ron Stern]

A couple pages later on (p. 56) there is a chart of "Melodic Minor Scale Harmony". The first scale is C melodic minor and the chord label above is C (triangle-with-a-line-under-it). At the end of the scale is the label "minor-major" which is apparently the name of the mode, i.e., "minor-major mode" is another name for the melodic minor scale.

I only know what they tell me.

[Dad3353]

...What is C (triangle-with-a-line-under-it) ?...

Good evening, Ron...
It means that you've bought by mistake a book on Geometry.
(Sorry; it just escaped me. Please ignore...)

[Banksia]

A couple pages later on (p. 56) there is a chart of "Melodic Minor Scale Harmony". The first scale is C melodic minor and the chord label above is C (triangle-with-a-line-under-it). At the end of the scale is the label "minor-major" which is apparently the name of the mode, i.e., "minor-major mode" is another name for the melodic minor scale.

It is stupid that he has a glossary of chord symbols at the front of the book but he doesn't mention that one. And why does he throw in an extra name for something which has already had a name for centuries? (the minor-major mode)

[Aristotle]

And this one too, apparently: J.S. Bach - Bouree Em from 1st Lute Suite BWV 996

Where? I don't see it.
(And does this mean you are withdrawing Greensleeves? )

[Reg]

Surely you don't mean you've never heard anyone use the Melodic Minor (descending)? Melodic (descending) = Natural Minor.

Surely you're not saying you've never heard anybody use the Natural Minor scale?

You've never heard the song "Alone Together?"

Hey Banksia...If that's what I said... sorry I was not clear... What I was trying to say is when I hear the pitches from natural min ascending or descending, I hear as Natural Min. and harmonic implications... the same with MM, etc. I hear/think of complete vertical structure for each note, doesn't mean it's played, that's just the way I hear. So if I'm using MM are you saying I have two sets of chordal structures depending on which direction the line is going and do I always reference as MM... I guess I can see that, maybe use as structural type of harmonic use... I just have never heard anyone, composer or player use it like that. I've seen traditional examples, just don't hear it that way. But I can theoretically understand how one could.
I'm pretty sure there's modal interchange going on in Alone Together... at least that's one of the ways I've played the tune for too many years, Still dig tune and melody.
As far as the C something over Amin... When I'm hearing/playing the C something, my tonal center is C, and for me when I play modally I hear chords with characteristic pitch and those without. Sorry man this is getting a little winded, If your really interested we can start or go to a modal thread and discuss modal playing... My use of "mythical" with MM usage is just for fun, didn't mean to rub wrong way. Best Reg

[timscarey]

Bars 8, 9 and 10 of Beautiful love.

Scales are stupid.

Oh yeah, and I have no idea what "triangle with a line under it" means, sorry.