Ear training - why?

[JonnyPac]

I dunno about perfect pitch, but relative pitch is. That's more important anyway.

As for ear training, I'd argue it's the single most important thing for a jazz musician. Like kris said, the goal is to hear what you want to play and then be able to play it. It is the root of good melodic improvisation that isn't just "running changes."

+1

Word. Relative is totally doable. Mr. B hit it on the head with his post IMHO.

[jmthurman]

I dunno about perfect pitch, but relative pitch is. That's more important anyway.

As for ear training, I'd argue it's the single most important thing for a jazz musician. Like kris said, the goal is to hear what you want to play and then be able to play it. It is the root of good melodic improvisation that isn't just "running changes."

That's what I'm teaching my 14-year-old. She got disgusted with many aspects of the music program in the local public schools, so bye-bye flute, for now.

She's really been investing time into piano for the last 6 weeks. Yes...practicing! I showed her how to use GNU Solfege (an ear training program) and encouraged her to play a song she likes by ear at each practice session. She reported, today, that she has almost completed a simple accompaniment for a song that she transcribed.

Wow. At 14 I didn't know I was supposed to transcribe tunes. Oh...and she loves the transcription bit so much, she works on ear training, too!

Ear training... It's not just for torturing freshmen theory students!

[Madroaster]

Hi All, This is my first post on this forum. A brief introduction first: I've been playing guitar for a long time, but have not done anything to progress beyond cowboy chords until about a year ago when I started focused daily practising. I've spent the past several months working on ear training and I think it has had an enormous impact on my playing.

Anyway, I wanted to address the Korea/perfect pitch aspect of this discussion. I've lived and worked in Korea for several years and can offer some perspective I think. Most importantly, Korean is not a tonal language. Koreans are not known for having perfect pitch; there is no language-based reason why they might be. Also, while certainly some Koreans studying music will spend time sight-singing, to the best of my knowledge sight-singing itself is not part of the regular Korean curriculum.

Cheers,
--Derek

[Aristotle]

Ear training - why?

[Reg]

Hey GC Knight... If your going to play Jazz ear training is simple one of the many skills required. Jazz is not Memorize and perform... it is interact and react to what other musicians are playing... pretty hard to pull that off whit out being able to hear and have some type of comprehension of what your hearing. I hear many classical and beginning musicians say that the only way to start is that...Memorize and perform.( for you classical musicians I apologize for simplification, I played for six years...I know how difficult it is), and maybe that does work for some.... I believe you need to start interacting and reacting... using you ears from the beginning... These are all generalizations... and obviously don't cover all situations... but are different interpretation of making music... Best Reg

[CGKnight]

Aristotle, Reg, guys - I've only done a little solo (no group) classical playing (no composition) so far - it didn't occur to me at all. Had I thought of it properly instead of asking on the impulse, I wouldn't have to ask this question. The answer seems pretty butt-obvious to me now, and had I been into jazz or even classical composition - I'd have known the answer for myself

Thanks for your help, folks! ^^

[MarkRhodes]

I don't understand how anyone could question the value of ear training.

In reading over this thread, I thought of the Joe Henderson quote (-I forget who posted it recently, or on what thread) that went like this: "You ever knew somebody knew 400 tunes that couldn't play?" (I'll have to Google Henderson and get this right--I want to remember it.) I've found that one of the best ways to sharpen my ears is to play tunes and sing along with records I love. And playing tunes from memory.

[ejwhite09]

This may seem like a really elementary question, but...

WHY is it necessary?

Because being a musician in a nutshell is being able to reproduce sounds you hear accurately. Even classical musicians do a ton of ear training. I read in China their classical conservatory students learn songs TWO NOTES at a time. Just playing two notes of a melody a day! Thats ear training on a ridiculous scale, but I imagine some of the players will become the very talented musicians.

Ear training is great, I have perfect pitch, and it still helps me(so perfect when I first started playing guitars never sounded 'in tune' to me, I learned later they never are, I just thought I had a bad guitar). But ear training can't be taken in isolation. You must apply it to the instrument. Ok I can hear the interval of a major third, but that is useless(outside of piano)unless you know the interval of a third on your instrument.

Combining the ear training of knowing intervals with on the instrument training of knowing where intervals are, is what you are after. Ear training is fundamental. I talked to a trumpet player who said he was always jealous of guitarists because we get to do ear training 'fun and natural.' He meant by and large we can get our guitars listen to relatively elementary music on the radio and 'play along' or train our ears. This had never occured to me, and from that moment on I never gave my students another tab lesson. Either they figure it out by ear, and if I don't know it, we figure it out together. Which creates a great student teacher bond and also I think helps them with confidence that even a guy you think of as 'good' has to sit down and 'sing it out' still.

Ear training is not so much about knowing the sounds and naming them, like all things in music, its merely a tool to internalize a concept so you can apply it without so much thought you in essence can't play.
Don't make it a thing like some guys sit and listen to intervals for hours, I don't think this helps. I do about 30 minutes of dedicated ear training(which I think you should do by trying to play what you hear, and singing intervals, only). Getting a program and listening to intervals over and over isn't really helping you.

Always make your music training application not theoretical.

Ear training is important, because its the way music is learned, absorded, and transmitted. It's probably the oldest concept in music. But it doesnt need to be taken deadly seriously. Ear training should be the most enjoyable part of being a musician because its listening to music and playing! But in the end like scales, arps, and everything else, its just a tool to help you break the barriers between the music in your head and your fingers.

[hurricanebob]

An interesting thread. Whether you have perfect pitch, are Korean (or not), or a classical or jazz or folk musician, the question is: how do we make music? What tools do we need? What tools will help us most efficiently?

Ear training is to music what weight lifting is to wrestling, or football. It is training. When you hear something, having that training, it is easier for you to translate it into quantifiable terms--a chord.

Having that knowledge is no guarantee that you'll be able to make beautiful music; that, like all arts, remains shrouded in mystery. Better, though, to have more tools in your toolbox.

In the end it is only the music that matters. Not our training, with whom we've studied, how expensive and how exclusive our instruments, how much we know, with whom we've studied/watched perform/been given lessons.

There is much humililty that comes with making music. That is a good thing.

[nikole]

I dunno about perfect pitch, but relative pitch is. That's more important anyway.

As for ear training, I'd argue it's the single most important thing for a jazz musician. Like kris said, the goal is to hear what you want to play and then be able to play it. It is the root of good melodic improvisation that isn't just "running changes."

I know that most of big names in jazz have very good perfect pitch.This is fact.I can hear this in thier music.
Perfect pitch is from nature but music it's not only for the people with perfect pitch.

______________________

[Drumbler]

Ear training as an isolated activity is good but could your time be better spent by learning more and more tunes?

I'd rather learn more tunes with my time. There is only so much time.

Your ears will develop as needed by learning tunes.

There are lots of musicians who claim perfect pitch by the fact that they can transcribe a melody by ear. But I don't think that is really what is meant by perfect pitch which seems to be some rare peculiarity.

[mr. beaumont]

I know that most of big names in jazz have very good perfect pitch.This is fact.I can hear this in thier music.
]

I'd question where you got your information, how you think you can hear "perfect pitch" in their music, and whether or not you're here to talk jazz or sell e-books.


So all of us without perfect pitch should probably hang it up, huh?

[ptrallan01]

My first instrument was a flute and I was shown the music on paper, taught how to finger the flute and reproduce the sounds. I learned the violin the same way. I wish I had learned to play by hearing/listening/reproducing. I played in a band with a bunch of guys who couldn't tell you what anything was callled but give them 3 minutes listening to a song and they could pick it up. Give them a week and they are playing it pretty good. Me I need to write it out think it through and then practice it to get it.

I've gotten better over the years because I play in an environment where there is no written music so I have no choice. The day when I can hear and react without thinking very much may come but it isn't here yet. Still having fun though which is why we do this right?

[Drumbler]

I played in a band with a bunch of guys who couldn't tell you what anything was callled but give them 3 minutes listening to a song and they could pick it up. Give them a week and they are playing it pretty good. Me I need to write it out think it through and then practice it to get it.

I've gotten better over the years because I play in an environment where there is no written music so I have no choice. The day when I can hear and react without thinking very much may come but it isn't here yet. Still having fun though which is why we do this right?

A week is a long time. That is not really too impressive. If you read well you can certainly learn a tune in less than a week. In fact really good readers can learn a new tune by almost playing it while reading it. So don't think you are missing anything comparing yourself to your "ear buddies".

Work on your reading skills and get better. Dizzy Gillespie was a great sight reader as was Stan Getz. Many jazz greats are/were excellent sight readers. Being a good reader was a big advantage in the big band (although there were ear players in big bands).

When I want to learn a new tune I don't waste my time learning it by ear. I get the sheet music. Why? Because I can! I read books too. I don't get audio books from the library because I can't read. Audio books can be enjoyable on a car trip but can you imagine if you couldn't read books?

I would listen to a recording to transcribe phrases and licks but not to learn the melody for example.

[JonnyPac]

I have a hard time finding correct charts. I am a slow reader, and I don't trust what I read. I feel the needs to analyze. THE NEW REAL BOOK series seems like the best, but the selections are limited. I learn heads by mostly by ear and then I transcribe them with corrected chords symbols. It seems like the printed extensions are usually wrong and imply chord-scales that were not on the source recording. I only play fake-book gigs now if it is an exception. I like to internalize every part of a tune that I perform and personalize it from there.

[Dark Star]

I know that most of big names in jazz have very good perfect pitch.

My perfect pitch is pretty good. It's not perfect, though.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think there's some confusion on the terminology. Perfect pitch is being able to identify a specific pitch by name w/o any reference. When you play Bb they know it simply by the sound. They think a note name every time a door squeaks. You are either born having it or not. Very rare. Most of the finest musicians don't have it.

This ability can be aquired in various degrees by some and is called aquired pitch.

Relative pitch is knowing what pitches are relative to a beginning reference pitch. This is what ear training develops.

Being able to noodle around on an instrument and figure out a tune is called playing by ear.

[fep]

You are either born having it or not. Very rare.

The research I've read doesn't back that up. Where are you getting your information from?

In Asian countries that have pitch based language; for children that start learning music at a young age, over 50% of them have perfect pitch.

Whereas, it is very rare in the U.S. even for people of the same Asian ethnicity as above. In U.S. and European countries it is estimated that less than 1 in 10,0000 of the general population has perfect pitch.

So perhaps you are born with it, but it is not rare to be born with the ability to acquire perfect pitch. Learning music at a young age and growing up with a pitched based language seems to be very helpful.

I've never met anyone who acquired perfect pitch after they were teenagers or older.

Here's some research on that:

http://deutsch.ucsd.edu/pdf/JASA-2006_119_719-722.pdf

Most of the finest musicians don't have it.

Once again, where did you get that information from?

That hasn't been my experience and the research I've read doesn't support that either.

Many of the very best musicians I know have perfect pitch. I'll admit this may be subjective, as not everyone agrees on who are the best musicians.

Most of the major composers had perfect pitch.

Famous People with Perfect Pitch

Being able to noodle around on an instrument and figure out a tune is called playing by ear.

That's not my definition.

I've been thru the four semesters of college ear training. That includes sight singing and taking musical dictation.

Musical dictation tests had the first note or chord given and then a musical passage was played and we had to notate what we heard. Just us, manuscript paper, and a pencil. There was no instrument we could use as a reference, and no humming or singing allowed. There was no noodling about it, you either know it or you don't. All music majors have to pass these core classes. And btw, I'll add that there were two students in my ear training classes that had perfect pitch, they both grew up in asian countries.

Noodling around your instrument to find the notes is not what any experieced musician I know would call playing by ear. That may be learning a song by ear, but it's not playing by ear. Playing by ear iss a much higher level than that.

I know musicians that can hear the melody and chords to a song and play it almost instantaneously, quick enough that they can play along with something they've never played before and by the second chorus they're locked in. That's playing by ear.

[Drumbler]

The definition of perfect pitch is somewhat confusing.

How do we define "perfect pitch"?

Is this acceptable:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_pitch

"Absolute pitch (AP), or perfect pitch, is the ability to name or reproduce a tone without reference to an external standard.[1]
The naming/labeling of notes need not be verbal. AP can also be demonstrated by other codes such as auditory imagery or sensorimotor responses, for example, reproducing a tone on an instrument. Therefore a musician from an aural tradition, with no musical notation, can still exhibit AP when asked to reproduce a sounded note.[2][3]
Possessors of absolute pitch exhibit the ability in varying degrees. Generally, absolute pitch implies some or all of the following abilities when done without reference to an external standard:[4]

• Identify by name individual pitches (e.g. A, B, C♯) played on various instruments
• Name the key of a given piece of tonal music just by listening (without reference to an external tone)
• Identify and name all the tones of a given chord or other tonal mass
• Accurately sing a given pitch without an external reference
• Name the pitches of common everyday noises such as car horns
• Identify the numerical value in hertz of a given note."

********************

Fep,

The exercise/test you presented of being given the initial tone or note and then a sequence of other notes or chords would seem to be a test of relative pitch, not absolute or perfect pitch.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't want to get caught up in terminology, but one of my early music theory professors referred to aquired perfect pitch as "aquired pitch." Of course many musicians develop it. If you don't want to make that distinction, it doesn't bother me. My professor's distinction for the term was for those individuals with a natural ability to distinguish ANY pitch without musical training or use of a pitch-based language.

We had a girl in that class with pp. Non-major, not a great musician and with an ironic difficulty with singing intonation.

It just seemed that the term perfect pitch was being thrown around to describe everything from relative pitch to playing by ear.

I won't split hairs on the aquired pitch thing.

As to dictation, I would never call it "playing by ear."
Seems a little tedious to debate my use of "playing by ear." I think that my meaning was pretty plain. I was simply pointing out that figuring a tune out over several days shouldn't be referred to as perfect pitch.

[Drumbler]

Yngwie Malmsteen was quoted as saying he had perfect pitch because he could transcribe a melody by ear.

This is not perfect pitch.

Transcribing is not perfect pitch. Picking out notes on your guitar by ear is not perfect pitch.

Perfect pitch is hearing sounds like you see colors. You just know blue is blue and red is red. How it is done is a mystery.

Maybe if you took LSD you would hears sounds as colors?

I do not have perfect pitch. Relative pitch I got.

[fep]

Fep,

The exercise/test you presented of being given the initial tone or note and then a sequence of other notes or chords would seem to be a test of relative pitch, not absolute or perfect pitch.

I'm very aware of the difference, one would have to be an idiot to go thru 4 semesters of ear training and not know the difference.

Yes it was a test of relative pitch. The college courses didn't try to teach absolute pitch, they only taught relative pitch. All of our testing was relative pitch testing.

I'm not aware of any colleges teaching absolute pitch.

[JonnyPac]

I pitch relative pitch to my students. I developed it, they can develop it. It's doable and I don't think one can improvise very well without it. I have never been around a person who claims to have perfect pitch in the "eyes see color" way. That must be something...

[matt.guitarteacher]

I had a classmate in a Conducting class who had profound problems maintaining a simple four pattern. He had a Masters in music from another school and brought it with him and displayed it as if the paper somehow proved his qualifications. :-)

Of course he wasn't taken seriously even by us undergrads.

You don't have to post your diploma as an avatar to make a point. You sound like you know what you're talking about. Let your words carry their own weight.

Blessings,