The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Posts 76 to 100 of 161
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzaluk

    Although, I have to say, that even with pros, the performances I enjoy the most are the ones where there is no sheet music in sight. My favorite Montreal guitarist is Greg Clayton. He can play three hours of captivating BeBop (Jazz Standards) from memory. That's a whole different discipline, and equally as valid.
    Another skill I wish I had. :-( Ah well, I'm getting better, so it's probably just a matter of time.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

    User Info Menu

    quote=Jazzaluk;94649] My favorite Montreal guitarist is Greg Clayton. He can play three hours of captivating BeBop (Jazz Standards) from memory.
    ... and you know Greg can read anything!

  4. #78
    TommyD Guest
    Hey fellas! I have an idea! Let's debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!
    tommy/

  5. #79

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by TommyD
    Hey fellas! I have an idea! Let's debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!
    tommy/
    No more than 20, I can tell you that.

  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff
    No more than 20, I can tell you that.
    Yeah but can they read a chart if you put it in front of them?

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Jazzaluk... I believe were simply trying to get young players to include sight reading as part of playing jazz... Playing jazz is very different today as compared to late 60's and back. I read back then but didn't see that many charts. Jazz theory was being defined and explained as compared to now... it's common knowledge if you want to know... There were not as many tunes or different forms for tunes as we see now at gigs.... I won't bore, but would you really tell a young guitarist not to bother with sight reading?
    Best Reg
    Personaly I think it's a straight jacket,Jazz is improvised swinging music,how can you do all that and sight read ( I can't ) I bet Jeff can though. Wes got away without reading,let alone sight reading.I'll except the fact that there are scholars out there who do approach the music in that way,I'm affaid I'm not one of them.LG.

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    Good afternoon, all...
    Where to start? I am one of the 'hundreds or thousands' referred to by Jazzaluk. I don't get that much satisfaction from my reading attempts, except, as with all challenges that I take on, I wouldn't do it if I didn't want to.
    The motivation? For me (complete amateur, no pretentions for any career or professional competence...) is, having acquired the Joe Pass method, to be able to benefit. It's all on a stave. I'm working at it (with Mickey Baker, I & II, also written out that way...).
    The time I have (choose...) to spend is finite; I got much more to progress with and understand from a 1 hour video of Joe Pass than I shall get from 3 months with the sheet music (and a bonus dose of belly laughs from the 'fluffs' and asides on the tape ...'I never noticed this guitar had 22 frets before..?'. Hilarious...). I'll do the work, as best as possible, as I'm stubborn, but for me, it's not an efficient way of going to where I want to be. Mickey Baker is similar; the web site, with it's Guitar Pro compatible files is marvellous. makes things clear faster (that's the original reason for writing out the scores in the first place...). Isn't it rather the result that counts, than the means?

    Aimer est le grand point, qu'importe la maîtresse ? Qu'importe le flacon, pourvu qu'on ait l'ivresse ?
    Alfred de Musset
    Extract from La coupe et les lèvres

    That's why I don't read (or at least, very badly...). I don't think I'm alone (not that that ever stopped me doing what I do...). I can't read Latin or Greek in the original, either; there are gems for classic scholars that I shall never know in there, as the modern English translations are not as profound, apparently, as the original text. Tough on me, but I'll live.

    Was that worth 2 cents? (Money Orders, cheques or PayPal accepted...)

    Incidentally, I'm not sure that this is the right thread or forum for the arithmetic question on celestial dancing (or have I missed something..?)

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    I love how people (even people who play jazz) say that jazz is improvised. That is technically incorrect.

    I can play a jazz chart (either reading or from memory) and it not be improvised at all; including a solo. Just like sight-reading is one part of musicianship, improvisation is one part of jazz.

    If we define jazz as improvised, then that is a slippery slope leading to the declaration of all "jazz standards" as not really jazz since if it is written down or memorized, then it isn't improvised.

    Further, you can improvise in plenty of other genres of music. Beethoven was known to improvise melodies as he composed, yet we don't call it jazz. Blue grass players, while playing a descendant of jazz, improvise all the time but I've known some to slap you if you say it sounds "jazzy".

    ~DB

  10. #84

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lindydanny
    If we define jazz as improvised, then that is a slippery slope leading to the declaration of all "jazz standards" as not really jazz since if it is written down or memorized, then it isn't improvised.
    Come, come... Improvisation plays a major rôle in jazz -- how's that? Not all aspects of jazz are improvised and not all improvised music is jazz.

    Quote Originally Posted by lindydanny
    Further, you can improvise in plenty of other genres of music. Beethoven was known to improvise melodies as he composed, yet we don't call it jazz. Blue grass players, while playing a descendant of jazz, improvise all the time but I've known some to slap you if you say it sounds "jazzy".
    Slap you ... on the back! Yee-haw!

  11. #85

    User Info Menu

    I think maybe improvisation is the wrong word, perhaps extemporise would be more approriate, John Coltrane called it extrapolation,-"new lamps for old". I think the swing element sets jazz apart from other musical genres.. Back to sight reading, what about blind jazz musicians like Lennie Tristano; surely they would have to rely solely on their aural senses.LG..

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    Speaking from one who has put in the time... into becoming a musician. Playing is not a struggle or challenge, it's very enjoyable. The improvisational part of jazz I enjoy is the interaction between players with the skills,( instrumental abilities, have the ears and are able to use them, understand theory well enough to know when something's implied, where it could go, where it usually goes and always know where the groove is). This interaction can be on tune from memory or from a chart we see for the first time. Sight reading is not a straight jacket... that's a silly analogy, how does that work... some one who is able to read , which for some reason is difficult for most guitarist, can't cover the easy skills. Most of the professional rhythm section players I know or run into at all types of gigs, (were not talking about traditional or commonly referred to as classical players, I'm referring to jazz players), Know how to read... and they all can definitely covers the performance skills. What jazz players are able to do is read the chart and also hear what might be implied by the chart. That might be reflection or interpretation of whats been played before or improvise what might work, all the time being aware of context. All this being said... I play gigs with non-reading musicians, or those who struggle with charts and have a great time... Don't let one of the many reasons for not being able sight read be an excuse for not being able to sight read. If you don't want to SR... don't... It sure seems like more would come from explaining theoretical differences between b13 and #5, how to develop harmonic phrasing skills or different re-harmonization techniques and how to apply them to your soloing or comping, rather than philosophical differences... Best Reg

  13. #87

    User Info Menu

    Paul, that article does make some great points. I'd agree that guitarist came to notation and notation came to piano.

    Larry, I'll go with supporting reading notation and sight reading as individual skills within the realm of being a musician. Obviously someone who has the physical limitation of not being able to see notation can't master that skill set (at least not as we would understand it). But, I will stand beside the simple fact that a good musician will do everything they can to be a better musician. My experience is that a blind musician will typically kick any other musician's but at playing by ear. Why, because THEY PRACTICE IT ALL THE TIME! If I practiced sight reading at the same pace, I'd master it too!

    Reg, in your posts you make some good points. I just wish I could read them.

    ~DB

  14. #88

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bob32069
    #1 reason guitarists are poor sight readers: tablature

    i've never seen saxophone tablature
    I'm sure tablature is a part of it. I was useless at sight-reading until I joined a classical guitar ensemble at a local university. I showed up to the first class late, clearly the oldest person there, with a broken nose, carrying an archtop and with only the knowledge that the "spaces" in the treble clef represent FACE...It was a hard course for me, but that's what it took for me to learn to sight-read.

    But I digress. My theory for why guitarists are poor sight readers (and often poor at many things musically): open chords. New guitarists start by learning open chords rather than notes. This is terrible for technique but also for knowing any notes on the guitar other than the open strings and the first 3 frets of the low E and A strings. And the more they play open chords, the less they are willing to learn anything else.

    On the flip side, however, I only know one classically trained pianist (out of the 20 or so that I know) that can improvise even just a single bar of music...At least most guitarists can wail a little on the blues scale, and of course Django and Wes' inability to read music didn't seem to hold them back too much...

    My sight-reading still stinks, but I think it's pretty low-priority so I only spend about 15 minutes a day working on reading music (i.e. unfamiliar pieces).
    Last edited by coolvinny; 08-28-2010 at 06:08 PM.

  15. #89

    User Info Menu

    Sheesh, you guys are overlooking the obvious.
    Carrots, more carrots.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    You know, nobody even thinks twice if a piano player can read, or questions if an oboe player, or a violinist is musically literate. They don't even have to ask, it's naturally assumed. It's so "duh" that one of most BASIC and ESSENTIAL requirements of being a musician is to be able to sight read music.
    Not so. And I'm wearying of this guitar-centric world view, guitarists aren't that special.

    The only BASIC, ESSENTIAL requirement of being a musician is to be able to make music. OK, I recognize unintended hyperbole when I see it, and I accept that one of the most basic, essential requirements of being a fully-rounded, Western trained musician is being able to sight-read music. So are having at least one second instrument, an understanding of sonata form, the ability to write arrangements with four voices and being able to conduct a small choir, among other things. That doesn't mean we should dismiss those who haven't got that kind of musical background as some kind of sub-musician. My dear old daddy, for example, couldn't read a note, but played a boogie-woogie piano that could get your dead grandparents up and dancing, and could coax a tune out of practically any instrument if left alone with it for five minutes. Very few flamenco guitarists are acquainted with musical notation. How many Irish fiddle players have we known who could just blow those conservatory types off a stage? And so on. These are not non-musicians, I'm talking about good musicians who would probably make most of us look woefully inadequate in a real-world performance situation, including those of us with advanced sight-reading skills.

    I'm not denying that sight reading is tremendously useful, and there is no real excuse for not acquiring some reading ability. Neither is there any excuse for not being able to play by ear, or follow chord charts, come to that.

  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    JGR,
    Your "dear old daddy" didn't have TAB... he had ears! Same with the fiddlers you mentioned.
    That's why they can play the way they do. They had to work for it.

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Well said JohnRoss.

    RonD...Of course they had to work for it...you have to work for everything in music. The question is, where should you apply your effort. For some, the skill of sight reading may be essential to hang with the "real musicians", for others there may be more value added in developing an ear and acumen for improvisation.

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    Funny vid... Hey John... what do you call a good guitar player who can cover most performance skills but not sight reading. Then what do you call a good guitarist who covers performance skills and can read well. Then what do you call a guitarist with good performance skills, can read well, can cover on lets say three other instruments. Understands traditional music theory as well as jazz theory, can compose in traditional instrumental and vocal forms as well as jazz and pop etc... I'm taking for granted, being able to play by ear as one of the performance skills. This could be the start of great guitar player joke.... I've changed my direction....what ever you do don't waste time on sight reading... I know it's too late for many of you, but don't spread the sickness, there might not be a cure. Mind reading could be the next great performance skill, and no tabs needed... sorry I don't know where I'm going... best Reg

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    That video is awesome.

    ~DB

  21. #95
    nullnaught Guest
    Tablature has ruined me.

  22. #96

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Funny vid... Hey John... what do you call a good guitar player who can cover most performance skills but not sight reading. Then what do you call a good guitarist who covers performance skills and can read well. Then what do you call a guitarist with good performance skills, can read well, can cover on lets say three other instruments. Understands traditional music theory as well as jazz theory, can compose in traditional instrumental and vocal forms as well as jazz and pop etc... I'm taking for granted, being able to play by ear as one of the performance skills. This could be the start of great guitar player joke.... I've changed my direction....what ever you do don't waste time on sight reading... I know it's too late for many of you, but don't spread the sickness, there might not be a cure. Mind reading could be the next great performance skill, and no tabs needed... sorry I don't know where I'm going... best Reg
    They say a Lobotomy works wonders..

  23. #97

    User Info Menu

    Sight-READING is nothing. Sight-SINGING, on the other hand. Now you're talking about music!! Sing all that shit!!

  24. #98

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by larry graves


    They say a Lobotomy works wonders..
    After last few nights gigs, I can't remember... but I think... no.. I feel... as though I might have been through the procedure. Wait... is this the bridge...
    Is that Stevie in the audience...
    Reg
    Hey... how do you sight sing with out sight reading.......(fake it, no one will know)
    Last edited by Reg; 08-29-2010 at 11:11 AM.

  25. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719
    Sight-READING is nothing. Sight-SINGING, on the other hand. Now you're talking about music!! Sing all that shit!!
    I think the reason jazz has nose dived is it's mainly instumental,everybody sings. The rock guitarists back vocalists, correct me if I'm wrong..

  26. #100
    I like to read. I like the fact that notes occur on multiple places on the neck.
    It ends up being like "The Count" on Sesame Street, who loves to count.
    Lots of people like math. It applies to inteervals, to lots of stuff. There's definitely a math element.
    But .........
    A while ago, I met somebody to play duets and Real Book tunes and ...
    I had a gruesome discovery:
    Although I could find the notes better than ever, I was helpless with complex rhythms.
    We played Desifinado and the quarter note triplets and other constructs derailed me.
    My point: Learn the notes but you WILL need to be able to read rhythms well.
    I have two possible resources for myself:
    1) Leavitt's Melodic Rhythms
    2) Louis Bellson's book, which I haven't obtained yet.
    Modern Reading Text in 4/4 For All Instruments