The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    I've never discussed it with a horn playing colleague, but my impression is that the phrasing/articulation is set by the section leader or maybe just by the first trumpet. They're very good at figuring out how a phrase is going to be played and then melting together into one big note.

    That said, in my experience the horns usually read what's written with great accuracy, so I may be talking just what's around the edges.

    Maybe a classical player would have his eyes on the chart more than his ears on the section leader.

    Bigger differences might occur in the rhythm section. What are they going to do about all those slash marks?

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  3. #52

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    Here’s another point.

    The working jazz ensemble probably doesn’t have or need a conductor.

  4. #53

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    I'm inclined to agree with Peter--I've heard enough "pops" performances from classical orchestras that sounded like jazz-lite. And I've watched jazz-based teachers work with schooled players (though, to be sure, young non-pro players) to get them to loosen up.

    On the other hand--a 17-piece big band with no leader at all? Who counts off? Yeah, I've seen lots of videos of the Basie Band, but what about a non-standing band hired to accompany a "jazz" singer for a recording session? Somebody certainly has to be in some kind of charge--if not to write the arrangements, at least to organize some rehearsal time. Or am I underestimating the skills of the guys who worked with Nelson Riddle, Billy May, or Les Brown? (Though I suppose much of that material might not be considered sufficiently jazzy for this conversation. But I grew up on swing bands, and they generally swung pretty good, even if you could dance to them.)

    FWIW, I hear some jazz in this Billy May arrangement, though Keely's not generally considered a jazz singer. Nevertheless. . . .


  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by RLetson
    On the other hand--a 17-piece big band with no leader at all? Who counts off? Yeah, I've seen lots of videos of the Basie Band, but what about a non-standing band hired to accompany a "jazz" singer for a recording session? Somebody certainly has to be in some kind of charge--
    Alto 1 baby.

    Lead trumpet on interpretation.

    Drummer conducts the form.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by RLetson
    I'm inclined to agree with Peter--I've heard enough "pops" performances from classical orchestras that sounded like jazz-lite. And I've watched jazz-based teachers work with schooled players (though, to be sure, young non-pro players) to get them to loosen up.

    On the other hand--a 17-piece big band with no leader at all? Who counts off? Yeah, I've seen lots of videos of the Basie Band, but what about a non-standing band hired to accompany a "jazz" singer for a recording session? Somebody certainly has to be in some kind of charge--if not to write the arrangements, at least to organize some rehearsal time. Or am I underestimating the skills of the guys who worked with Nelson Riddle, Billy May, or Les Brown? (Though I suppose much of that material might not be considered sufficiently jazzy for this conversation. But I grew up on swing bands, and they generally swung pretty good, even if you could dance to them.)

    FWIW, I hear some jazz in this Billy May arrangement, though Keely's not generally considered a jazz singer. Nevertheless. . . .

    Have you ever heard of rehearsals?
    Even the WRD big band has regular rehearsals.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Have you ever heard of rehearsals?
    Even the WRD big band has regular rehearsals.
    I am from London so I have not. Show up and read. Why rehearse when it eats into the drinking time?

    Actually tell a lie, we did do a one hour rehearsal one time.


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  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I've never discussed it with a horn playing colleague, but my impression is that the phrasing/articulation is set by the section leader or maybe just by the first trumpet. They're very good at figuring out how a phrase is going to be played and then melting together into one big note.

    That said, in my experience the horns usually read what's written with great accuracy, so I may be talking just what's around the edges.

    Maybe a classical player would have his eyes on the chart more than his ears on the section leader.

    Bigger differences might occur in the rhythm section. What are they going to do about all those slash marks?
    A classical player better have their eyes on the conductor. I think they work on their peripheral vision lol.


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  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I am from London so I have not. Show up and read. Why rehearse when it eats into the drinking time?

    Actually tell a lie, we did do a one hour rehearsal one time.


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    Yeah the Mingus Big Band only rehearses to record. I know that for a fact.

    Lead alto, baby.

    Make sure the rhythm section knows what’s up and you’re off to the races.

    (I suck at playing in big bands but the last time I did, the director was an old college professor and we played the Nestico A train and he didn’t give me a chart and I was like …

    Me: can I have a chart?
    Him: no.
    Me: …..
    Him: it’s a piano chart anyway, you wouldn’t want it.
    Me: true.
    Him: it’s just … A Train, yknow?
    Me: yes.

    he starts to walk away, then turns around: Oh and the modulation to e flat in the middle.

    Me: ….. okay.
    He turns around again: you take the solo.
    Me: okay.
    Him: also the fills at the end, piano thing. You do those too.
    Me: okay.

    And that was the rehearsal.

  10. #59

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    I’m pretty sure the Mingus Big Band rehearsed before gigs in the venue. That is the normal routine. And when you hire the same musicians who’ve played the charts a lot you don’t really need to rehearse unless someone wrote a new chart. Sue didn’t want to pay for rehearsal.


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  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I’m pretty sure the Mingus Big Band rehearsed before gigs in the venue. That is the normal routine. And when you hire the same musicians who’ve played the charts a lot you don’t really need to rehearse unless someone wrote a new chart. Sue didn’t want to pay for rehearsal.


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    I ran the door at the Jazz Standard for about a year and half while that was their regular thing. Every Monday night plus the yearly high school festival they did. They were lucky if they could get them all in the door in time for downbeat, let alone a rehearsal.

    Unfortunately what turned out to be pretty near to the end Sue’s life, so I never had the pleasure. I did save her table every night though.

    Sir we’re sold out tonight, but I do have space at the bar.

    What about that table?

    Thats Sue’s table.

    Sue who?

    Mingus, now take it or leave it.

    And Sy Johnson would come in a lot, in particular when he had new music for them. He’d talk it through with the the regulars but that’s about it.
    Last edited by pamosmusic; 09-28-2024 at 08:05 PM.

  12. #61

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    Yeah. That sounds about right. What that other place they used to play? Before that. I saw them there and sat with Sue of course. And her daughter Susan who was dating Alex Foster I think.


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  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yeah. That sounds about right. What that other place they used to play? Before that. I saw them there and sat with Sue of course. And her daughter Susan who was dating Alex Foster I think.


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    Probably Fez?

    It was the Standard for I think eleven years or so? Ending with the pandemic.

    And very cool! Like I said … never met Sue unfortunately, but we held the table, partly as homage, but also we had the local family in a lot and the folks who worked for Sue and the band would sit there.

    It was always a huge mess but so much fun.

    Got to see the Tommy Campbell rubber chicken solo a few times. Alex was alto one almost every week, Abe Burton, Wayne Escoffery, and Ron Blake on tenor, Lauren Sevian most nights on bari, a lot of rotation in the trombones, but Conrad Herwig on one, and Earl McEntyre on bass trombone pretty regularly. A lot of rotation in the trumpets too but Alex Sipiagin, Alex Norris, and Walter White most nights. Boris Kozlov on bass, and Dave Kikoski, Theo Hill, and Helen Sung rotating on piano.

    Monster group at all times.

    Definitely the highlight of my time there. That and Maria Schneider on Thanksgiving.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Yeah the Mingus Big Band only rehearses to record. I know that for a fact.

    Lead alto, baby.

    Make sure the rhythm section knows what’s up and you’re off to the races.

    (I suck at playing in big bands but the last time I did, the director was an old college professor and we played the Nestico A train and he didn’t give me a chart and I was like …

    Me: can I have a chart?
    Him: no.
    Me: …..
    Him: it’s a piano chart anyway, you wouldn’t want it.
    Me: true.
    Him: it’s just … A Train, yknow?
    Me: yes.

    he starts to walk away, then turns around: Oh and the modulation to e flat in the middle.

    Me: ….. okay.
    He turns around again: you take the solo.
    Me: okay.
    Him: also the fills at the end, piano thing. You do those too.
    Me: okay.

    And that was the rehearsal.
    I know the chart and I had exactly the same situation haha. Well I had page 3 of the chart which is was more helpful than having the first two pages. And then on the next gig I didn’t bother with it.

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  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I know the chart and I had exactly the same situation haha. Well I had page 3 of the chart which is was more helpful than having the first two pages. And then on the next gig I didn’t bother with it.

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    I suppose its good to be reminded of how expendable you are from time to time

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I am from London so I have not. Show up and read. Why rehearse when it eats into the drinking time?

    Actually tell a lie, we did do a one hour rehearsal one time.


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    My remarks were just in response to the comments about how to get an ensemble of non-jazzers (classical players,students etc...) to play jazz charts and have them sound authentic, swing, etc...
    The best example of this is when I went to a concert of a High School jazz ensemble led by a friend of mine at the HS where he worked for 38 years (he's now retired).
    The jazz ensemble he led sounded perfect rhythmically and played their parts accurately, proving that with a lot of rehearsal, and a great conductor, any decent musicians can sound like a 'real' jazz ensemble/big band.
    However, the improvisational aspect of it was horrendous, proving that teaching non- jazz players to read music convincingly is possible, but teaching them to improvise is a whole other thing.
    .

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    My remarks were just in response to the comments about how to get an ensemble of non-jazzers (classical players,students etc...) to play jazz charts and have them sound authentic, swing, etc...
    The best example of this is when I went to a concert of a High School jazz ensemble led by a friend of mine at the HS where he worked for 38 years (he's now retired).
    The jazz ensemble he led sounded perfect rhythmically and played their parts accurately, proving that with a lot of rehearsal, and a great conductor, any decent musicians can sound like a 'real' jazz ensemble/big band.
    However, the improvisational aspect of it was horrendous, proving that teaching non- jazz players to read music convincingly is possible, but teaching them to improvise is a whole other thing.
    .
    Ah sorry, missed the context.

    Apologies for tacitly accusing people of rehearsing.

    TBF this is always the case with school jazz ensembles. Improvisation in the ensembles has often been of the "here are the scales, make something up" approach. Don't know if it's the same at your end, but I always wonder if there's a way to make it all sound better. Often the ensembles sound great, so it's a real shame.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Ah sorry, missed the context.

    Apologies for tacitly accusing people of rehearsing.

    TBF this is always the case with school jazz ensembles. Improvisation in the ensembles has often been of the "here are the scales, make something up" approach. Don't know if it's the same at your end, but I always wonder if there's a way to make it all sound better. Often the ensembles sound great, so it's a real shame.
    Im working with much younger kids, but I’ve made every chart this year with a lead sheet to go with it so they all know the melodies even if they aren’t in the tune, and also simple parts of the melodies notated on their own with the solfège under. We’ll see if I ever get to that point.

    Weve been working a lot of blues form so we’ve been doing a lot of “play part of this other blues you know in your solo too” or “steal the rhythm of that other blues” or whatever which is cool. It’s kind of swiped from Randy Vincent.

    We obviously have a fundraising concert like … immediately though. So I’ll be able to do a lot more teaching once we’re on the other side of that.

  19. #68

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    They also have a listening list obvs … for the blueses we listened to C Jam for the simple phrases (also they know it), then Bags Groove for hearing the whole form because you can hear Miles and Milt switch at the top of the form, then Early Every Morning so they can hear BB King do the question question answer thing (and it’s the only BB tune I can find that is classroom appropriate), and then Now’s the Time for hearing that with an instrumental. Working up to Green Onions which they’re playing on a concert … so you can clearly hear the repetition of the first phrase even though it’s only sort of thematic.

  20. #69

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    You could show them Chitlins Con Carne to hear how to mix chords and single notes.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    You could show them Chitlins Con Carne to hear how to mix chords and single notes.
    Whoa there tiger. Small doses for the young ones.

    haha

    My group this year is ...

    5 saxes (maybe 6) ... all alto
    2 trombones
    4 trumpets
    1 piano
    1 guitar/bass

    all grades 4-6.

    We are going to do a sectional day each week this year where the students from every class get together grouped by instrument rather than by level, so that will be cool. Plan to get my guitar player into moveable chords and stuff during that time.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Whoa there tiger. Small doses for the young ones.

    haha

    My group this year is ...

    5 saxes (maybe 6) ... all alto
    2 trombones
    4 trumpets
    1 piano
    1 guitar/bass

    all grades 4-6.

    We are going to do a sectional day each week this year where the students from every class get together grouped by instrument rather than by level, so that will be cool. Plan to get my guitar player into moveable chords and stuff during that time.
    Ohhhh, you mean literal children. Not "kids" meaning people younger than me.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Ohhhh, you mean literal children. Not "kids" meaning people younger than me.
    hahah

    Fair point.

    I too am this old

  24. #73

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    op or Rob... I transcribed and made charts for Berklee back in early 70's , worked in the ensemble rm.
    Also was a copyist, did work for some of the local composers and arrangers...was a way to make $.

    Anyway... generally getting the notation correct was a process of filling in the blanks. Get the Targets first etc... then fill in the blanks.

    Understanding what was going on in tunes helps with filling in the blanks. Styles have characteristic rhythmic patterns and rhythmic feels which become... References. Understanding the stylistic nuances help notation reflect what's played.Like speaking different dialects of same language.

    Example... Cannonball had chops... and used blues to tie things together
    Corea used latin figrues and McCoy liked 4th and pent like patterns .... just simple examples of how I would approach... trying to fill in the blanks.

    Rhythmically.... it's just getting the right subdivisions. And you can always just bar and throw a number on top LOL.

  25. #74
    Thanks. I am the original poster and that is useful tips.