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I know the importance of the ear training and have been consciously doing it, although quite on and off...
I have this problem: I just have relative pitch, and could mostly recognise the chords type, but since I don't have the perfect pitch, I couldn't tell what is the bass note. For example, when I hear a dominant 7 chord, I can tell it's a dominant 7 chord, but I couldn't tell it's a C7 or a A7. If you play me a C note on piano, then I could then tell the bass note, for instance it's A7, but just for this time. If I keep on doing this quiz, I would lost the C you played, and still couldn't tell the bass note for the following chords, until you play me the C again....
I have a strong sense of the "relative solfege", if you play me a A and a C#, i would have a "do mi" in my head, and if you then played me a A# and D, i would still have the "do mi". And I assume, because of this, another interval could easily make me lose the fix pitch (the C) you played me several seconds ago.
I am not trying to train myself to get a perfect pitch, I just want to find a way to keep that "C", at least for several minutes. Anyone could help me get through this? Many thanks!
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07-26-2024 04:11 AM
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Maybe test yourself and build up your pitch memory by singing the global root/fifth etc when listening to a chord progression?
Originally Posted by Peng1026
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As far as I know, your trying to acquire the perfect pitch of always knowing a C, is not really useful. Why? In every piece you play, from a practical point, it's all most people need to know 1) The key area or tonic of the piece at that point and 2) the harmonies that are relative to that tonic.
Why is it that you feel the need to know the letter identity of a pitch that is not important to the framework with which you're playing.
I have relative pitch. In each tonal area of a tune, all that is important is Where is home, and how am I moving relative to that.
When I worked for a guitar maker, I was working with, setting up and tuning guitars all day. I got to know the sound of a guitar without needing a mechanical tuner. I didn't see any utility of that ability in my playing. When I stopped working there, that ability was gone in weeks.
It didn't effect my playing.
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Yeah but that "C" changes it's "function" whenever there is... almost anything going on with the harmony. Originally Posted by Peng1026
I think your real problem could be that you can't switch or settle in a new key fast enough while playing? Dunno what your goals are though.
I read from your post that what you are after is that you always want know what the harmony does or where it goes - but that's not "problem". That's a skill or skillset that requires insane amount of dedication. For years.
...for people with perfect relative pitch. Get comfy with all sorts of common and uncommon combinations of harmony, think them all through. It is just heavy work. Most people won't even bother, I guess?
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I don't have perfect pitch but I understand the character of some of the notes including C and can hear them and sing them if I think about it a little. Pick a note where you intuitively get the character of and try to memorize it. They're not all just certain notes at a certain frequency, they have different character to them.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 07-28-2024 at 02:11 PM.
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A# to D is not "do mi". It is either "di fa" or "do fe". Bb to D is "do mi". Originally Posted by Peng1026
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I'm suggesting a hard negative for this project. Originally Posted by Peng1026
Jimmy blue note advised focusing on the local tonic (supported by relative pitch)
- the notes take their scale degrees and interval numerals from the local tonic
emanresu advised the "C" will change function (supported by relative pitch)
- the "C" will take its scale degree and interval numeral from the local tonic
Bop Head advised to the conflict between "notes" and your "do" reference
- "do" alignment to keys' "note" names may require the extra syllables
If you are trying to hold a "C" for minutes through the chord harmonies of a song progression:
- the reference may not be to the song key
- the reference may not be to the local tonic harmony pattern
- the reference may not be to the individual chord harmony
- the reference may well be like forcing your mind to be a transposing instrument that changes for each key
Your references should reference the music itself... not some arbitrary selection like "C". What will you "do" (ha ha, solfege pun) for music whose key or local tonic key contains enharmonic B/Cb or C#/Db? C# is the second sharp to appear, so 12 of the 14 sharp keys have it. Cb is the second to the last flat to appear, so that is 2 flat keys containing Cb (but also there are two more flat keys (synthetic) with Db (enharmonic to C#), so 4 flat keys of concern. Six of the sharp keys have B enharmonic to Cb, and key of C has B... I think that is 23 of the 30 keys where if C is chosen to be held as reference, the key will contain a neighboring semitone to that C (B/Cb, C#/Db). I'm conjecturing that this is the general result of any reference note.Last edited by pauln; 07-28-2024 at 11:00 AM.
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Think about this, as a thought exercise: What we play, what we create, what we convey as PLAYERS does have a correlation with how we hear and what the listener hears. In other words, when the player and the listener are sharing their point of reference, magic happens.
When you listen to music, does it matter if you can hear a reference note that is not related to what you're hearing?
If you're in G, do you need to be able to hear Eb?
Do you need to be aware of C if you're in B?
Do the notes that aren't related to a musical idea or thought matter to the music that's being sung?
When you're listening to a song you really like, and maybe the band or singer is playing in the key of E. Do you really need to know or be able to identify "C"?
Making music is about making melody, not awareness of 12 unrelated notes.
Could it be that your idea of "proper ear training" is based on some idea that you must know the names of every sound in order for you to use them?
Think about this maybe, You train your ear so you can know and use the sounds that are musical; to explore the potential of expressing coherent sound, not to create the ability to identify names of notes that aren't of use to you in your ear.
I really want to know, WHY is this important to you to know, and why do you think this ability is more important than knowing HOW to use the notes you can hear in your mind?
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To me the most important aspect of ear training is to hear intervals: major vs. minor; dominant vs. major 7th; flat/natural/sharp 5th; etc. And to be able to hear chordal movement: ii-V-I, V of V, major and minor 3rd tonal center shifts, etc. Those are all relative rather than absolute.
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Peng1026
I think you have to do it the hard way. There is no correct way of thinking, no method or system, only pain and suffering. If you want to keep the C, go back and correct it constantly. It is an active process even when it feels automatic.
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I can hear a C and sing it. However, like the others said, your relative pitch skills are more important. I'm not to the point where I have enough pitch references that I can usually tell what exact notes I'm listening to are. Sometimes I can kind of hear what key a song is in or get hints of what specific notes and chords are. Some advanced musicians without perfect pitch are to the point to where they can hear exact pitches, chords, keys, etc. It's a separate skill. But again, the relative pitch skills are probably more worth your effort. Although, there's no harm in working on the perfect pitch skills in tandem.
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Very few musicians have absolute pitch, which is innate (or possibly acquired in very early childhood, impossible to test in pre-verbal children). Some people develop something that comes close to it by training (I sing a lot and know my vocal range, so can somewhat reliably locate the top of it and interpolate from there), but it's not really all that useful or important for musicianship. Good relative pitch is much, much more important.
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I had a student who has perfect pitch (well I have two) and it was really hard to get him to hold the guitar up the right way and use the right fingers. I would say he was one of my more challenging students tbh.
Perfect pitch is not that uncommon. Otoh there’s not necessarily any cross over with talent in other areas of music. And pitch can make you a bit lazy, it also means you tend not to map music in intervallic or relational terms which can be an issue.
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I have a student with perfect pitch and he told me he doesn’t “believe in practicing.” Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Sounds about right Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I had 20/10 vision when I was in high school, but it would be weird to hear an artist talk about Perfect Color for a person who could immediately identify the RGB code for any color at sight. I’m sure it’s useful to have excellent vision but it’s The Vision that matters, I suppose? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I have a pine tree in the front of the house. It has perfect pitch. It thinks guitars are a waste of time and good trees.
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What definition of perfect pitch accounts for variation in concert pitch, temperament, and measurement error? There have been dozens of historical concert pitches within the frequency span of A=392Hz - 450Hz and dozens of historical temperaments (four widely used). A=440Hz equal temperament defines the distance between semitones as 100 cents so a "name this note" test will score "correct" with a +/- 49 cent error range.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The only person I know personally having perfect pitch has practiced a lot to achieve world-class technique. IIRC his internal pitch reference is a little off standard tuning which does not make life easy for him when playing with others. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
EDIT: Interesting: His perfect pitch is not mentioned in his Wiki articles.
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This is all so true.
Studies show that most musicians without perfect pitch think perfect pitch is irrelevant.
They also show that most questions posted on internet are poorly adapted to the answers.
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I don’t think it’s irrelevant at all, in fact I imagine it’s incredibly useful. But it’s about like being 6’9” and basketball. It’s immensely useful to a good basketball player, but won’t get someone who stinks much past JV. Originally Posted by Jwr
And similarly difficult to learn.
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As I noted in answer to your post about fretboard mastery, if you connect a thorough knowledge of harmony to a well-trained ear, every note you hear is a reference point that allows you to hear the key center, the melody, the underlying harmony and so on, all through the tune. You don't need to hold onto a memory of the tonic note in isolation, because everything you hear is a relative reference to what came before it. That is, if Gb is the tonic note and you hear iii-vi-ii-V-I, you don't need to remember Gb throughout the tune in order to understand that you've heard Bb- Eb- Ab- Db Gb.... you hear the chord colors, the intervallic relationships and the progression as a whole.
In contrast, the ability to hold onto a C natural in this situation is really not going to be very useful.
Again, I recommend taking a harmony class that emphasizes ear training. You want to train your ear to associate what you hear with a mental model of harmony - doing that will allow you to understand what you are hearing as soon as you hear it.Last edited by starjasmine; 07-30-2024 at 01:37 AM.
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When chord transcribing I use numbers instead of notes. I write I-vi-ii-V. Thus it doesn't matter is it C or A.
On topic of remembering a sound pitch - I used to have a pitchfork in the car and I used it for reference and to train memorizing a=440 Hz. It worked to some extent.
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OP, are you deserting your thread or what? I see you active on your other thread.
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