Minor ear victory

[CliffR]

So, my ear is pretty crap. Prior to taking lessons, I assumed it was so bad I never even tried to learn things by ear. Christian has encouraged me to do so, and slowly things have gotten better, but much slower than I would like.

This last two weeks I've been working on Charlie Parker's Chi Chi. Sunday before last I spent a couple of hours trying to figure our the first three bars of the melody. I wound up with something consonant with the chords, but I could tell it wasn't right. I just couldn't tell what was wrong with it. This is the sort of thing that pisses me off and makes me want to go and practice something else instead. So I didn't try again until Saturday just gone, at which point I came up with a quite different version of the first three bars. Still wrong, and I still didn't know why, but maybe better. After a break for lunch, I somehow found what I think was the correct melody.

This evening, I've spent the last hour on it and, having cracked those first three bars, I've been able to figure out the remaining nine in a much shorter period of time. I'm sure I still have mistakes in there, and I have to practice it so that it's under the fingers, but I'm feeling pretty pleased with myself . So, to those of you who, like me, doubt their ear skills, just know that it does get better, even though it can be very frustrating at times, and sometimes the progress can be decidedly non-linear. Also, if you don't know Chi Chi, ch-ch-ch-check it out. The melody is really cool!

[AllanAllen]

Instead of forcing myself to suffer with a task until I can’t stand to do it for another week, I simply set a 5 minute timer.

It’s how I got through everything I didn’t want to do. Music books, reading charts, learning by ear. I would often go for an extra 5 minutes because the first 5 were so fast and usually after a week I didn’t need the timer because it wasn’t so painful anymore.

Also, excellent work figuring out anything by ear. It’s not easy.

[Christian Miller]

Instead of forcing myself to suffer with a task until I can’t stand to do it for another week, I simply set a 5 minute timer.

It’s how I got through everything I didn’t want to do. Music books, reading charts, learning by ear. I would often go for an extra 5 minutes because the first 5 were so fast and usually after a week I didn’t need the timer because it wasn’t so painful anymore.

Also, excellent work figuring out anything by ear. It’s not easy.

This is an excellent idea that I have used myself


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[pamosmusic]

My indispensable practice tools are.

1. guitar
2. metronone
3. kitchen timer

I practice most stuff to a timer. Also just good for pointing out to yourself how much time you waste

[CliffR]

Yeah, the five-minute practice interval is one of many pieces of wisdom Christian has mentioned to me and which I've failed to implement . Sorry Christian.

[CliffR]

Lol. In the course of recording it just now for today's lesson, I found at least three more mistakes from last night's transcription.

[AllanAllen]

Lol. In the course of recording it just now for today's lesson, I found at least three more mistakes from last night's transcription.

Try not to focus on the mistakes so much. They're always going to happen, shrug them off and focus on the fact you are working by ear. It's the number 1 recommendation and almost nobody actually does it. They don't do it because it's hard, but the difficult fades and what emerges is an ear for jazz, something no book can give you.

[CliffR]

Thanks for the encouragement. If nothing else, it provides really good learning for phrasing. There were further mistakes that Christian was able to correct. So now the work begins to get it down tight and at a decent tempo. And to improvise....

[AllanAllen]

Thanks for the encouragement. If nothing else, it provides really good learning for phrasing. There were further mistakes that Christian was able to correct. So now the work begins to get it down tight and at a decent tempo. And to improvise....

The more you work on, the easier things will be to get tight and up to tempo. Like, I used to suffer with Satin Doll, but by the time I learned 15 other tunes, Satin Doll is a piece of cake, what I didn't do was hyperfocus on Satin Doll until it was flawless then move to another song. I got it in my head then went onto something else. It's hard for me to explain, but it's the same concept as Happy Birthday, how often do you practice singing happy birthday, and how often do you forget it?

Eventually I could just recall things and play them better than I ever did before.

But, if Christian is telling you to do it differently, I'd probably stick with his advice over mine. My methods have resulted in constant, but slow, improvement with great effort.

[Reg]

Sounds like your enjoying getting better. cool.

Spending that much time on one tune, or if I understand you, just a few bars... is way over the top.
How much time do you spend on technique.

Technique isn't just for your playing skills, it also teaches your ears to be able to heat a faster tempos. learning in slow motion teaches you to hear and play in slow motion. Which is good and everyone does it.....

But you also need to work on all those skills in faster tempos.... or your going to look up in 20 years and still be in slow motion. Which is not what Jazz it.

[pamosmusic]

Sounds like your enjoying getting better. cool.

Spending that much time on one tune, or if I understand you, just a few bars... is way over the top.

Sounds like he spent a few hours on the whole thing? A couple on the first three bars and then "the rest much faster." Tracks for me.

Spending a couple weeks on a tune, I feel like is a good habit to be in. For most of my first few years playing jazz, I spent wayyyy to little time on a given tune. Lo and behold I kept forgetting them and having to relearn them.

(also bebop heads are a different animal ... when I learn a new one of those suckers, it goes on a list and I come back to it for a few minutes every week or so until the end of time)

[Bobby Timmons]

Don't wanna be in a stop-time sink hole.

[Reg]

"This last two weeks I've been working on Charlie Parker's Chi Chi. Sunday before last I spent a couple of hours trying to figure our the first three bars of the melody. I wound up with something consonant with the chords, but I could tell it wasn't right. I just couldn't tell what was wrong with it. This is the sort of thing that pisses me off and makes me want to go and practice something else instead. So I didn't try again until Saturday just gone, at which point I came up with a quite different version of the first three bars. Still wrong, and I still didn't know why, but maybe better. After a break for lunch, I somehow found what I think was the correct melody. "

Yea maybe... but looks like he spent 3 hours on 1st three bars. Which is cool, not bad etc.

But generally at that rate in a few years ... what.
I guess bottom line is ... we are what we are. And peter said... he's doing whats working for him.

The other option is... learn how to sight read... takes 6 months to a year..... but then you be able to play tunes you don't know. I've probable played every tune... or a version of all the tunes. And I still can't even remember the names...LOL.

But when I see the chart it only takes 10 to 15 seconds and I know it.

Again all these details are related to your technical skills... You can't practice all the tunes all the time.

Another possible trick to learning tunes is to learn different styles of playing the same tune. I helps get you past just trying to memorize tunes piece by piece.

[Bobby Timmons]

He's talking about developing his ear, not learning rep or building technical skills. You have to go at whatever speed it takes for that.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think a fundamental skill is this.

If you hear two notes, after you find the first one, do you automatically know where the second one is on the guitar? That is, can you hear the interval and play it?

If you hear a phrase of just a few notes, can you sing it? And, if you can sing it, can you automatically find those notes on the guitar?

Here's a quick test. Pick a random finger, string and fret. Starting there, play Happy Birthday. If it is difficult, you have something to work on: hearing something and then playing it.

You can practice it by simply thinking of a tune and playing it, starting in different places on the guitar. Or, copy the music you hear on the TV or radio when you're noodling on the couch - or any other music. Or, of course, transcribing bop heads, although that's a little like throwing a novice swimmer into the deep end of the pool.

The skill develops with time on the instrument. Transcription is the tried and true method, but there are fine players who will admit that they rarely do it.

I think you can develop it by doing a lot of reading (which does connect the sound to the fretboard, not just to the printed page), although there's an argument that it reinforces the eye more than the ear.

Formal ear training may help too.

For transcription, some recommend focusing on players who don't play a zillion notes. Hank Mobley, Paul Desmond, some Jim Hall, some Miles. To name a few. Slow-downer software like ASD or Transcribe! can be useful. Youtube will slow things but it won't loop, afaik.

I think there are phrase trainers within some ear training software. I've never used them but it seems like they might be worthwhile.

I think a key concept is to find a way to accomplish the task that you actually enjoy doing. There is no one way up the mountain.

[pamosmusic]

Yea maybe... but looks like he spent 3 hours on 1st three bars. Which is cool, not bad etc.

But generally at that rate in a few years ... what.

Well you did leave off an important part:

This evening, I've spent the last hour on it and, having cracked those first three bars, I've been able to figure out the remaining nine in a much shorter period of time.

The sitting down and hacking away at something you suck at is the hardest part. You get better and it takes a lot less time. You start moving quicker and you start enjoying it, which makes you do it more.

Anyway ... point being that his next tune will be faster than this one.

I've probable played every tune... or a version of all the tunes. And I still can't even remember the names...LOL.

But when I see the chart it only takes 10 to 15 seconds and I know it.

Again all these details are related to your technical skills... You can't practice all the tunes all the time.

Another possible trick to learning tunes is to learn different styles of playing the same tune. I helps get you past just trying to memorize tunes piece by piece.

This is a matter of taste. I'm not an awful sight-reader, and was quite good when I had grad school auditions coming up and was actually practicing it and whatnot. But holy mother does it drive me nuts when I play a tune and can't remember what it was. And the gigs I play are gigs where people call tunes and I play them, so it's a more relevant skill to my day-to-day life that I know a lot of tunes than that I be a monster sight-reader. I'd wager that's also probably the case for someone who's learning and playing with friends etc.

And for what it's worth (and also knowing Christian) memorizing a tune piece by piece is probably a part of the point of the learning. Like if you learn a particular tune inside and out, and learn the progressions in units and in different keys and whatnot, then you'll start seeing those progressions and those phrases everywhere you look. So the next tune is easier, and the next easier and the next easier. So the same way that you see a tune on a chart and just know it. Maybe one day Cliff will hear a tune he likes and go "ah ... sounds like it starts with some cycling two-fives. Four and back there maybe? Oh B section seems like it modulates." Which is an immensely valuable skill when the sheet music is hard to come by.

[DawgBone]

He's talking about developing his ear, not learning rep or building technical skills. You have to go at whatever speed it takes for that.

I've been playing for 30 years and know automatically when my guitar isn't in tune and if I don't have a melody right. My ear slowly got better over time.

My son had relative pitcb at 17 and almost perfect pitch around the same time. I can play a note and he can name it. I still cant do any of thst. He can name chords by ear. Aargh. I guess that's why he got a Louis Armstrong award and I didn't haha. No matter, the tortoise wins cause I still play and gig and he just prefers recording technology.

[CliffR]

Hey all - some great points here. I guess some of us are born with stronger ears than others, or learn to improve them at a much earlier age. Or both. My 16-year-old niece, who's only just started guitar, was showing me the other day a Red Hot Chilli Peppers riff that she'd worked out by ear. I used to think my friends had almost magical abilities the way they could pick up Led Zep and Van Halen solos from records.

I've been taking lessons with Christian for a little over three years now, and a part of that has always been ear training. Bobby is right: I'm doing this mostly to improve my ear, rather than to increase my repertoire. It would be nice to increase my repertoire too, but I've been bad so far at going back over previous tunes I've learnt. I checked last night that I still know Billie's Bounce, so now I have two songs down . In case it's not obvious, I'm doing this strictly as a hobby - I *may* eventually play at a jam or two, but that's as far as my ambition goes. Sometimes, especially with my tin ear, I wonder why I keep persisting. But I do. Anyway, point is I sucked when I first started, and I am slowly improving, but there's still a long way to go. At least now I know I'm not completely tone deaf, which apparently a certain percentage of the population is, and which I used to think I might be.

I find 2-4 weeks on a tune works well for me. To be clear, I've only spent 4-5 hours *transcribing* this tune. The rest of the time - typically 1-2 hours a day - goes on working through arpeggios, colour tones and chromatic enclosures on the from; improvising to a backing track; comping with the chords; composing some lines over the chords; lifting and mutating Bird lines; etc etc. As Peter says, it's hard to do the transcription part when, for me, it's the least fun part. So I do tend to avoid it.

Reg, I don't really practice technique on its own any more. I used to do a lot of that when I was playing rock, but moving into jazz has had me focus much more on the music. I am slowly increasing my tempo. I recently recorded Billie's Bounce at 145, and aim to do Chi Chi at 150+. At my current stage of playing, it's not so much technique that's holding me back as my ability to keep track of what's going on at speeds beyond this. But yes, I do understand I need to push a bit to get more comfortable at faster tempos.

[AllanAllen]

At my current stage of playing, it's not so much technique that's holding me back as my ability to keep track of what's going on at speeds beyond this. But yes, I do understand I need to push a bit to get more comfortable at faster tempos.

This gets easier with time and experience. You might try stopping into a few music stores to see if the teachers have any adult students who play jazz. Or, go to some blues jams with a Blue Note Records t-shirt on. Then corner anyone who says "nice shirt" they might be a closet jazz musician.

My point is, you'll grow exponentially faster if you can play with other people. The hardest part of that is finding them, the second hardest is getting a rehearsal/jam session scheduled, but after you figure out the who when and where, I've found the ball keeps rolling with minimal effort.

[CliffR]

My point is, you'll grow exponentially faster if you can play with other people. The hardest part of that is finding them, the second hardest is getting a rehearsal/jam session scheduled, but after you figure out the who when and where, I've found the ball keeps rolling with minimal effort.

There's actually a monthly jam in the village I've just moved into. I've been once, and the leader seems very supportive and encouraging to those that sat in. One guitarist called Autumn Leaves and they played it, which I'm told would not have gone down well in London where I moved from . I'll scope it out a few more times and see if I can work up the nerve to play. I gigged a few times in my youth with a Pixies-a-like band but had no idea how bad I was at the time. Now it seems much more daunting.

[Reg]

Hey Cliff... sounds good. We all are different and different goals or reasons for playing etc...

But I'll say again. You can really play jazz without technique, and part of technique is being able to play at faster tempo without knowing what you are going to play... Billies at 145 ... isn't bad... but ...

Part of playing in a jazz style....or just playing jazz tune with a jazz feel is being able to subdivide.. that means...being able to play Billies at 145 but with a swing feel.... triplets. So that's really faster.

What I'm trying to say.... you can't really have good feel or play in a jazz style without good technique.

2 hours a day is great....( I wish I had that much time), Technique is about being able to keep tract of what's going on at whatever tempo your playing at... So really technique is what is holding you back. Rock is different... it's usually rehearsed and doesn't have as many layers of musical understandings going on at the same time.

I'm a pro and gig all the time... many of those gigs are with amateurs, 90% of amateurs have problems due to technique. (and just don't know it).

[CliffR]

Hey Cliff... sounds good. We all are different and different goals or reasons for playing etc...

But I'll say again. You can really play jazz without technique, and part of technique is being able to play at faster tempo without knowing what you are going to play... Billies at 145 ... isn't bad... but ...

Part of playing in a jazz style....or just playing jazz tune with a jazz feel is being able to subdivide.. that means...being able to play Billies at 145 but with a swing feel.... triplets. So that's really faster.

What I'm trying to say.... you can't really have good feel or play in a jazz style without good technique.

2 hours a day is great....( I wish I had that much time), Technique is about being able to keep tract of what's going on at whatever tempo your playing at... So really technique is what is holding you back. Rock is different... it's usually rehearsed and doesn't have as many layers of musical understandings going on at the same time.

I'm a pro and gig all the time... many of those gigs are with amateurs, 90% of amateurs have problems due to technique. (and just don't know it).

Right, I get what you're saying. I was thinking of technique in terms of: can I execute a passage cleanly at a particular tempo. Back in my rock days, at my best, I could play 16ths at 120bpm, so kind of equivalent to 8ths at 240bpm, but without the swing. I can't do that anymore, but feel pretty confident to work back up to it. But yeah, if by technique you mean keeping of track of the form, and executing phrases without any forethought, all of that definitely makes me stumble once the tempo gets about 140 or so. One of the reasons I've recently been focussing on the blues is that I was hoping a simpler form might give me more opportunity to play in the moment rather than relying on precomposed licks. Anyway, point taken: I'll definitely devote more time to trying to play at faster temps. Cheers!

[AllanAllen]

There's actually a monthly jam in the village I've just moved into. I've been once, and the leader seems very supportive and encouraging to those that sat in. One guitarist called Autumn Leaves and they played it, which I'm told would not have gone down well in London where I moved from . I'll scope it out a few more times and see if I can work up the nerve to play. I gigged a few times in my youth with a Pixies-a-like band but had no idea how bad I was at the time. Now it seems much more daunting.

You can always try to get a private jam with one of the other participants. Like a rehearsal/jam. It doesn't have to be a public jam or a gig. You can play jazz at home with other people.

[CliffR]

You can always try to get a private jam with one of the other participants. Like a rehearsal/jam. It doesn't have to be a public jam or a gig. You can play jazz at home with other people.

Hmm - that's not a terrible idea.

[pamosmusic]

Hmm - that's not a terrible idea.

Its herding cats, obvs, but I think probably the most fun playing situation of all the playing situations.