Minor ear victory

[pamosmusic]

Not to hijack the thread, but as someone who is technique challenged, what do we mean by technique? Players like Bernstein and Hall and even a Grant Green seem to get around on Jazz tunes without seeming to have a ton of chops.

I usually think of technique as the ability to execute as distinct from musicality which is where, when, and why to execute.

Technique: the ability to sweep an arpeggio
Musicality: when to sweep an arpeggio

Technique: the ability to place accents in various patterns on your scales
Musicality: where should those accents fall in a bebop style line, or a funk style line, or whatever.

I would be careful not to conflate “technique” with “plays fast.”

First thing is that Bernstein and Jim Hall have pretty monster technique and are very much capable of playing fast. Jim Hall playing Scrapple on the “Live!” album at Bourbon Street is wild.

Grant Green gets a reputation for not having huge technique and it’s true that he is pretty limited by his ability to play stuff fast, but he’s also extremely flexible and has a pretty wide expressive range. So he’s got a really full technique in that respect — articulation, etc.

So technique does not equal plays fast often.

[Bobby Timmons]

Not to hijack the thread, but as someone who is technique challenged, what do we mean by technique? Players like Bernstein and Hall and even a Grant Green seem to get around on Jazz tunes without seeming to have a ton of chops.

Technique is your physical skills playing your instrument. It generally also implies your understanding of using those skills.

I usually think of technique as the ability to execute as distinct from musicality which is where, when, and why to execute.

Yep. Technique doesn't mean 'shredding', it means your ability to get your body to do the motions needed to accurately play what you want. Playing music well is 4 things: Ear, theory, technique, creativity. If you are poor in any areas you're usually shooting yourself in the foot. If you have a good ear, are creative, and understand the organization of things, but your hands can't physically play the right notes in the right time with the right inflection, it doesn't really do you any good.

[Christian Miller]

Don’t be fooled by players who don’t sound fast.


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[pamosmusic]

Don’t be fooled by players who don’t sound fast.


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Or by players who sound conspicuously fast.

[rpjazzguitar]

We also talk and while playing... making sure all have same targets and play what's implied but not notated on charts. Pretty standard performance techniques.

Reg, Would you be kind enough to give an example of this? What did you have to say and why? Thanks. I ask because I play in two big bands (and subbed in four others) and there's never any talking like that. So, I'm wondering, what am I missing?

[Peter C]

It's not about systematically "hitting the strings harder" all the time, LOL. However, from what I saw, there are specific notes in that head where you do need to dig in and pull against the rhythm, which is what causes things to swing, right? (For example the repeated F-D figure in the second measure). Not all notes are created equal and I think it would be good for your "technique" to force yourself to work on that and just let the rest follow. FWIW, I'm not a bebop player but I can swing.

[Reg]

Reg, Would you be kind enough to give an example of this? What did you have to say and why? Thanks. I ask because I play in two big bands (and subbed in four others) and there's never any talking like that. So, I'm wondering, what am I missing?

Hey Rick... you know me... Your a friend, you know i talk more than needed LOL.

But sure... generally the obvious. I think I subbed in one of your BB... and yea the set up... kind of sucked. rhythm section was against the back wall ...not to mention the band was way to formal, maybe because the charts were difficult to sight read.... you need to stay glued to pages and count rest a lot. Harmonic rhythm would flip around.
Obviously great band... I know most of the players.

But verbal decisions about who and how.. to comp and back soloist. generally if there is more than one soloist, you want the create a different feel and direction for the next soloist. Personally we don't want to be a backing tract.

Harmonically... there are lost of options for implying the same tonal target and use different changes and chord patterns... And you always listen to the soloist, most tell you by what they're playing where they want to go.

Are all the BB you work with ... just play the chart. Most of the BB I work with always have at least open sections.

And Backgrounds can be cued or setup before starting.

There's a dance BB I've worked with ??? North Bay...they play formal dance or gala gigs, tux etc...and festivals I ... You know any of the Vaca Jazz society musicians... Ken Stout (also) or Keith Stout... tpt Or Maddy... (Madeleine), Eddie Duran, (past away), Wife Sax player...

Anyway last week ... with new rhythm section, I know most players and know what they like... so I would verbally tell the rest of rhythm section... this guy like to play soft and stay there, this guy plays like most bones... or this player like to go in Sanborn direction ... this guy like to technically stretch the harmony... take it out etc...

Most of the rhythm section I work with ... talk, or cue each other. And I haven't set up next to the Tenor... last century.

The other thing is most rhythm sections trust me... LOL I natural rhythmically and harmonically cue Form targets, sections etc... just the way I play.

haven't seen ya in a while, I saw you were on solono ave last night... I was at pub... Did Piestrup get a new place to play. I'm getting out of town for a couple weeks.... you want to sub in my Wed nite BB. on 7/24... it's fun... but a lot of work... no piano. You'll know many of the players.
Anyway miss seeing ya

[rpjazzguitar]

But verbal decisions about who and how.. to comp and back soloist. generally if there is more than one soloist, you want the create a different feel and direction for the next soloist. Personally we don't want to be a backing tract.

Harmonically... there are lost of options for implying the same tonal target and use different changes and chord patterns... And you always listen to the soloist, most tell you by what they're playing where they want to go.

Are all the BB you work with ... just play the chart. Most of the BB I work with always have at least open sections.

And Backgrounds can be cued or setup before starting.

There's a dance BB I've worked with ??? North Bay...they play formal dance or gala gigs, tux etc...and festivals I ... You know any of the Vaca Jazz society musicians... Ken Stout (also) or Keith Stout... tpt Or Maddy... (Madeleine), Eddie Duran, (past away), Wife Sax player...

Anyway last week ... with new rhythm section, I know most players and know what they like... so I would verbally tell the rest of rhythm section... this guy like to play soft and stay there, this guy plays like most bones... or this player like to go in Sanborn direction ... this guy like to technically stretch the harmony... take it out etc...

Most of the rhythm section I work with ... talk, or cue each other. And I haven't set up next to the Tenor... last century.

The other thing is most rhythm sections trust me... LOL I natural rhythmically and harmonically cue Form targets, sections etc... just the way I play.

That's interesting. I haven't seen that done. It always feels like it's enough of a struggle to get through the chart. Nobody in the rhythm section ever calls for how to backup a soloist.

I've occasionally said something about how to play the groove for a new tune, but 15 horn players get impatient, I think, when the guitar player wants to spend time discussing comping patterns.

I don't know the Vaca players you mentioned except the Durans by reputation.

I PM'ed about the rest.

[pamosmusic]

It's not about systematically "hitting the strings harder" all the time, LOL. However, from what I saw, there are specific notes in that head where you do need to dig in and pull against the rhythm, which is what causes things to swing, right? (For example the repeated F-D figure in the second measure). Not all notes are created equal and I think it would be good for your "technique" to force yourself to work on that and just let the rest follow. FWIW, I'm not a bebop player but I can swing.

Sounds like maybe you’re talking about syncopations?

There are some particular spots where accents tend to sound good … tops of lines, lightly on most upbeats, bigger accents on syncopations and cross-rhythms.

Best to listen, but useful to know that’s where a lot of them will turn up. And Charlie Parker is less predictable than most in that respect.

[CliffR]

It's not about systematically "hitting the strings harder" all the time, LOL. However, from what I saw, there are specific notes in that head where you do need to dig in and pull against the rhythm, which is what causes things to swing, right? (For example the repeated F-D figure in the second measure). Not all notes are created equal and I think it would be good for your "technique" to force yourself to work on that and just let the rest follow. FWIW, I'm not a bebop player but I can swing.

I want to respond to this and what Peter A says as well. Working on accent placement is on my little list of things to practice, although I don't always remember each day to do it. But agreed, it can make things sound so much better. As for swing feel: Christian has had me work on this quite a bit, and we don't do that any longer, so I assumed it sounded reasonably good now. Now, as we've already established, my ear is not the best, so perhaps I'm missing something?

[pamosmusic]

I want to respond to this and what Peter A says as well. Working on accent placement is on my little list of things to practice, although I don't always remember each day to do it. But agreed, it can make things sound so much better. As for swing feel: Christian has had me work on this quite a bit, and we don't do that any longer, so I assumed it sounded reasonably good now. Now, as we've already established, my ear is not the best, so perhaps I'm missing something?

I suppose I haven’t commented on the video specifically so I should mention that I think it sounds quite good. The head in particular sounds really nice and has all that articulation stuff that you’d want to hear. Maybe less so in the improvised portion? But that would be totally normal. You play a half-dozen bebop tunes as well as you play Billie’s Bounce and then that stuff starts to sink in more. It still sounds good though, and some legit Parker licks you snuck in there.

One thing I would say that I think is awesome is that it seems like you actually have a super *light* touch.

That seems a little contradictory, but one of the hardest pure mechanical things to do on guitar is play loud (or rather play with dynamic contrast) with a light, healthy touch in the right hand. Usually first that means bringing the overall volume down so that the accents stand out that way, and then slowly bringing the contrast up by making the accents louder without losing the light touch that feels more natural at a lower volume.

So I don’t know man … it sounds like you’ve got a lot of a good stuff going on and that you’re in the middle of a journey on a few things and that a lot of people would be very happy with that recording. And judging by the stuff you’re talking about the next recording will probably be better on a lot of those musical measures.

And that’s the whole ball game right there.

[Bobby Timmons]

One thing I worked really hard on, being an amateur, to sound legitimate is time feel. Try to get your performance to all have a good time feel regardless of what notes you use. It'll never sound satisfactory to a listener without a good time feel.

Good time feel is:

1. Consistency - Keeping the tempo. Not speeding up or slowing down.
2. Precision - Having your notes be accurate in where they should lie in relationship with the tempo. Not having some be randomly off.
3. Flexibility - Pushing or pulling for effect. Different than having the consistency or precision be off. Where you'll push or pull a phrase, portion of a performance, or whole performance for dramatic effect, but have the notes still have good relation to one another. Like laying back for a chill feel, right on it for a stately feel, or pushing for an energetic feel.

You should practice working on consistency and precision on their own to get everything solid, then work on flexibility. When you record yourself in the daw, look at where your notes land in relation to the grid and then try to improve on the flaws.

[pamosmusic]

You should practice working on consistency and precision on their own to get everything solid, then work on flexibility. When you record yourself in the daw, look at where your notes land in relation to the grid and then try to improve on the flaws.

Id be interested to know if/how this would work vs practice w a metronome

[Bobby Timmons]

Yes you can/should work on that in any way.

1. Backing track
2. Drum track
3. Metronome
4. Even solo

They all provide different challenges and assistance.

[rpjazzguitar]

Time feel is one of the most elusive things a player needs to get.

I think it's very hard to learn something verbally that will enhance time feel. People talk about thinking about underlying triplets, or compressing or stretching the time, recording your playing against a metronome then slowing the whole thing down to assess accuracy etc etc.

Some report benefit to that sort of thing.

Playing along with records is tried and true advice. You really have to focus and nail the feel. Not necessarily easy. Joao Gilberto is an example. He played very simply, except for his time feel -- which turned out to be very difficult for others to nail.

I think playing in combos is a means to better time feel, but only if the other musicians already have good feel. It's everybody or it's nobody. Fortunately, a strong player with great feel can bring the others along.

On a gig, I want to see the audience moving to the music. Dancing, foot tapping, swaying -- something. You don't get that with bad time feel.

[Christian Miller]

For swing, don’t make the mistake of trying to line up the waveforms with the grid. You want to have consistent upbeat placement. Your downbeats will be slightly behind the beat. This will be a consistent amount but it is possible to play with the beat placement and the dot length. The real thing is finding the upbeat pocket.

If you play with the click on the upbeats then it will line up. You can also synch to the quarter triplet in this way (with the click on the and of one and three.)

Quite tricky at first

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[Bobby Timmons]

@rp, I really disagree that good time/feel is extremely elusive to grasp. Once I learned (from PatrickWD) the principle of consistency, precision, and flexibility, I improved immediately. Give it a try, that's really what it is. Keeping good time, being precise, then using flexibility for expression.

That's why it can be quantified and sound lame - it lacks flexibility for expression.

Or you can go for it and it can sound lame - has flexibility but maybe is shoddy with consistency and/or precision.

These are things you can focus on, practice, and quantifiably improve without having no understanding what is going on.

[Bobby Timmons]

@Christian, I've noticed that. For lead, kind of behind is kind of a sweet spot. When I lay down bass tracks, I want it quantified or pushing. Then when I go to solo over that, often I'm behind because I'm a behind player. Although lead guys can also sometimes push.

[pamosmusic]

@rp, I really disagree that good time/feel is extremely elusive to grasp. Once I learned (from PatrickWD) the principle of consistency, precision, and flexibility, I improved immediately. Give it a try, that's really what it is. Keeping good time, being precise, then using flexibility for expression.

You can absolutely practice it, but it’s still elusive.

A saxophone friend of mine says that every college sophomore suffers from Dexter Gordon Syndrome. He lays back … you’re just late. But why is it that he sounds good and most other people don’t?

How does a person practice “flexibility?”

Monk is a good example for piano. I drag like crazy when I play Monk tunes. Is he precise or consistent? Not sure.

[Bobby Timmons]

You can absolutely practice it, but it’s still elusive.

For me, it still takes practice, but it's not like I don't get what's going on when I listen back.

A saxophone friend of mine says that every college sophomore suffers from Dexter Gordon Syndrome. He lays back … you’re just late. But why is it that he sounds good and most other people don’t?

Always a combo of consistency, precision, flexibility.

How does a person practice “flexibility?”

Go for a specific effect whether it's ahead or behind and try to get it to sound good? If a phrase is ahead or behind, the starting point, ending point, and the relationship of the notes along the way should still be sound.

Monk is a good example for piano. I drag like crazy when I play Monk tunes. Is he precise or consistent? Not sure.

Monk has good consistency, he always keeps time well, is often imprecise but he makes it sound good in a rustic way, and he has command of flexibility. That's what gives him his characteristic sound rhythmically, he's imprecise. I had to try to unlearn the f out of it for organ.

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Gtg to work and chase theifs.

[Christian Miller]

One of the best things about practicing a lot with a metronome is that you start appreciating how non metronomic a lot of great music is ….

But learning accuracy is a good thing. There is a right way to be behind the beat. Finding the ‘pocket’ and learning to internalise the polyrhythms is something that can be done without staring at waveforms…


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[pamosmusic]

One of the best things about practicing a lot with a metronome is that you start appreciating how non metronomic a lot of great music is ….

But learning accuracy is a good thing. There is a right way to be behind the beat. Finding the ‘pocket’ and learning to internalise the polyrhythms is something that can be done without staring at waveforms…


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I like to move students through something like the following …

Met on every beat

1. Light accent on downbeats
2. Light accent on 1 and 3
3. Light accent on upbeats
4. Accent on the first of every three

That corresponds to where the high hat is, where the big bears are, where the stylistic accent is, and the most common cross rhythm.

Met on 1 and 3 …

1. quarter notes w accent on 1 and 3
2. Quarter notes w accent on 2 and 4
3. Quarter notes w anticipation of beat one, so 1 2 3 4+ 2 3 4+ etc

then repeat those every beat steps with the metronome on 1 and 3

Then add 3 3 2, 3 2 3, 2 3 3, etc

then repeat all that stuff with metronome on 1 only

Takes a while to get through all that so it’s an ongoing project

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

For me, it still takes practice, but it's not like I don't get what's going on when I listen back.

Always a combo of consistency, precision, flexibility.

Go for a specific effect whether it's ahead or behind and try to get it to sound good? If a phrase is ahead or behind, the starting point, ending point, and the relationship of the notes along the way should still be sound.

Monk has good consistency, he always keeps time well, is often imprecise but he makes it sound good in a rustic way, and he has command of flexibility. That's what gives him his characteristic sound rhythmically, he's imprecise. I had to try to unlearn the f out of it for organ.

---

Gtg to work and chase theifs.

Could you please show examples of Monk playing imprecise? His playing is angular regarding the rhythmic aspect as well, but imprecise? Are you shure you are really understanding the polyrhythmic stuff he is playing all the time?

I recently read about drummers having played with Monk (like e.g. Art Blakey) and they said that Monk took you on a "magic carpet ride" because his timing and rhythmic feel was so impeccable. And that he could play any tune at any tempo (and would vary a lot from performance to performance) contrary to most musicians knowing only three "built-in" tempos -- slow, medium and fast.

[pamosmusic]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say this is a looming case of Definition Confusion.

Maybe a better question is “what do you mean by precision and what do you mean by consistency.”

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

I like to move students through something like the following …

Met on every beat

1. Light accent on downbeats
2. Light accent on 1 and 3
3. Light accent on upbeats
4. Accent on the first of every three

That corresponds to where the high hat is, where the big bears are, where the stylistic accent is, and the most common cross rhythm.

Met on 1 and 3 …

1. quarter notes w accent on 1 and 3
2. Quarter notes w accent on 2 and 4
3. Quarter notes w anticipation of beat one, so 1 2 3 4+ 2 3 4+ etc

then repeat those every beat steps with the metronome on 1 and 3

Then add 3 3 2, 3 2 3, 2 3 3, etc

then repeat all that stuff with metronome on 1 only

Takes a while to get through all that so it’s an ongoing project

I miss quarter triplets (aka "African six") which may start on the beat or on the second triplet eighth of a beat in their shifted form.