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We seldom talk about "cover bands" in Jazz. We're all proudly playing the same compositions that thousands have played before us.
When a composition depends on the voice of the songwriter, then it becomes a cover the moment someone else likes to perform it.
The perspective have changed from composition to production. Studio productions depend on editing, mixing and mastering. The end result is a hi-fi sound that sometimes is so specific it can't be reproduced live. When a production depends on a studio sound, the consumer thinks the recording is the original composition and that any live performance (also by the songwriter himself) is seen as cover of the recording.
The recording industry is looking for originality. But jazz players are proudly copying. It's in the DNA of Jazz. A music composition shouldn't depend on any individual voice in the orchestra.
When Miles Davis did Cindy Laupers' "Time after Time", it was groundbreaking. He did it because the composition was strong and did not depend on Cindy's very personal voice. (Maybe he got inspiration from Cindy's voice? I don't know)
The harder we try, looking for originality by writing specifically for a certain voice, the less likely someone else wants to copy it. If a composition depends on the individual expression of an artist, nobody else would want to play it....and that's not Jazz.
The music compositions that will always be remembered are the compositions that people like to play (or like to sing, fair enough).
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04-20-2024 04:40 AM
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I've long been annoyed by the careless use of the "cover" label outside the music-biz context in which it made (music-biz) sense. My standard anecdote: more than 20 years ago, at an open mike where some friends were playing, a young guy asked me what kind of music I played. When I said, "Mostly swing standards," he replied, "Oh, covers." I had to bite my tongue to keep from saying, "No, we call it 'repertory.'"
The kid was not even half my age and almost certainly not familiar with the history of the term: the re-production and near-mimicking of a popular recording in order to market it to an audience different from its original audience. Thus Pat Boone covering Little Richard, etc. For the kid, playing "covers" clearly meant, instead of playing one's own material, settling for second-best--copying somebody else.
By the time of the open-mike conversation, "cover band" usually meant a bar band doing popular material in a manner close enough to original recordings that the audience would recognize it. That was my long-time playing partner's usual professional gig, and in his inevitable and necessary re-arranging, he was careful to preserve hooks, structures, repeats, and the rest of the machinery that gave a tune its expected flavor. (Nevertheless, he also enjoyed rearranging, say, Billy Joel or Pink Floyd tunes for acoustic guitar and bass and somehow making that sound familiar. I really miss playing with him.)
The bar-band scene is pretty much dead in our town, but there's a thriving tribute-band segment, and our very, very good local outfit (veterans of the old bar-band circuit) fills auditoriums for concerts of [fill in famous band name here] hits, attended mostly by people who bought the records when they were first released. I've never seen so many gray pony-tails in one place. (I should talk, with my silver goatee that has become part of the geezer uniform.)
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But wouldn’t you agree that when jazz players “cover” each does the song differently? I’ve heard many a jazz tune covered and yet each brought something different to the song.
Originally Posted by JCat
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It’s a standard craft. One can definitely be inspired to fill in Melody and Chords after the lyrics. In fact I feel it’s much easier to write music to lyrics than lyrics to music. Originally Posted by fep
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Once Sammy Cahn was asked this question.
His reply was "the phone call"....
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Good observation! and important for the subject of this discussion. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
It inevitably leads to a discussion about the core elements of a composition. -What parts have to be in place for us to say; "I've just finished a song I've been working on" ?
Also, -what is the meaning of the saying "to make this song my own"?
-Could "Drum and Bass" be a genre? -Could a composition really be finished if there are no other parts written, but for drum and bass?
-What is the actual meaning of Rhythm and what does it mean for our perception of music in general and a composition in particular?
-What is the actual meaning of harmony and what does it mean for our perception of music in general and a composition in particular?
-What is orchestration and what is the difference between arranging and composing?
-What is the difference between an improvisation and a composition?
-What is the difference between a production and a composition?
-Is there a difference between song writing and composing?
-Is a lyricist a song writer?
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In popular music, the music usually, but not always, comes first. I just saw a video the other day of Elton John explaining how he wrote one of his many big hits around the lyrics of his lyricist.
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Harry Nilsson's version of Without You immediately popped in my head, as an example of making a song his own. Originally Posted by JCat
The original version was written by Badfinger. They recorded it and liked it enough to play it on TV
But it wasn't released as a single, and it didn't really go anywhere. Along came Harry Nilsson, a great songwriter in his own right, who took it and fucking owned the shit out of it.
The Badfinger version, to me, sounds fine, but after Nilsson's version it kinda just sounds like a demo. Because Nilsson took it and made it completely his own. He even went against his producer to take it up an octave after the first "i can't live, if living is without you, i can't live, i can't give anymore..." The second time is ALL CAPS and absolutely delivers, and at that point the song is owned by Harry. I think the producer (Richard Perry) thought it was too much, but it absolutely makes the song explode.
Harry Nilsson is very interesting because he was a songwriter whose songs had been done by the Ronettes, Astrid Gilberto, and Three Dog Night. But his two biggest hits were covers; Without You by Badfinger and Everybody's Talkin' by Fred Neil. He made both of those his own. He also did an album of Randy Newman tunes (Nilsson Sings Newman) and an album of great American songs (A Little Touch of Schmilsson In the Night).
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I've definitely done it more than just once, more likely 4 or 5 times in my life...but every single one of those instances was 50+ years ago. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
I will say that knowing that I was writing song lyrics rather than poetry meant that I already had some semblence of "rhythm" in mind...if not strict metric phrases that could be notated, then at least larger archetectonic forms that were decidedly musical. And so it never felt like I was "seeking" the rhythmic element, just finding the right pitch components to turn the lyrics into song.
These days I mostly compose instrumental music, but when I do write a song with lyrics I typically get one word -- or one key phrase, or maybe even one full sentence of lyrics -- as the inspiration, and then I write most of the music before fleshing out the rest of the lyrics.
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Here's another example: Originally Posted by supersoul
Jesse Harris composed "Don't Know Why" in 1999.
Norah Jones did a cover in 2002 and won 3 Grammy awards; Song of the year, Record of the year, Best female performance of the year.
History is full of similar examples. Norah Jones is a great performer and "Don't Know Why" is a killer composition, not to be confused.
Hoagy Carmichael wrote "The Nearness of you" in 1937. Lyrics was added by Ned Washington.
It became one of the most covered songs in history, also included on Norah Jones 2002 debut album.
Hoagy Carmichael is arguably the greatest composer of popular music of all times, not to be confused with the endless list of great artists that wanted to make this song "their own".
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Nice to see Hoagy Carmichael getting attention. Great point about "their own" as it relates to a Hoagy song. E.g. all the folks that call Georgia a Ray Charles song!!!! Originally Posted by JCat
Hoagy is one of the top overall talents of the 20th century. He was in many first-rate films and TV shows, wrote many popular songs and was an overall solid musician.
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Just a few Lennon-McC observations --
From the Let It Be, session, where John is going over ' Something' w/ George H - -
- how they'd work on the melody ( substituting a word w/ similar syllables ) 'til Geo got the right word -
" Something in the way she moves, attracts me like a 'pomegranate' "..
Or how Paul's ' Yesterday ' in its beginning was ' Scrambled Eggs - '
Not sure whether this is fake Paul, or ?? : )
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-"Which comes first, music or lyrics"?
The train comes first
, i.e the rhythm of the locomotive engine and the rhythm of the rails.
The list of train songs is infinite. Examples; List of train songs - Wikipedia.
-Who wrote "Chattanooga Choo Choo"?
Wikipedia says "the song was written by Mack Gordon". (He was a lyricist, Oscar nominated for the best song 11 times, and he also won the award).
Wikipedia then says that "the song was composed by Harry Warren". (He was a film music composer, Oscar nominated 11 times, and he also won the award 3 times).
Warren and Gordon got inspiration while travelling on the railway train. Yes, the guys were a team and they had several successful collaborations ("There will never be another you" being another notable example).
"Chattanooga Choo Choo" was originally recorded as a big band/swing tune by Glenn Miller and His Orchestra and was the first song to receive a gold record. The melody is very catchy and clever and needs no lyrics. Even so, The reputation given to the city by the song also has lent itself to making Chattanooga the home of the National Model Railroad Association so Gordon's contribution didn't go unnoticed.
Glenn Miller's arrangement obviously contributed to the success. -Did he modify/adjust the original score composed by Warren? If so, would you refer to Miller as a co-composer? Miller was obviously inspired by the lyrics (trumpets and trombones imitating a train whistle).
Warren composed the music, Gordon wrote the lyrics, Miller arranged, his orchestra performed and RCA Victor recorded and distributed the song. All team work... but first came the rhythm of the rails.
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I came across a quote from George Martin on the differences between John & Paul's songwriting methods.
“Paul would think of a tune and then think ‘What words can I put to it?’ John tended to develop his melodies as the thing went along. Generally, he built up a song on a structure of chords which he would ramble and find on his guitar until he had an interesting sequence. After that, the words were more important than anything else,” George added. “He never set out to write a melody and put lyrics to it. He always thought of the structure, the harmonic content, and the lyrics first, and the melody would then come out of that.”
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