Chord substitututions

[Jazzguitar2516]

I have a question about chord substitutions.
What different chords can be used to replace the II or the V in a II V I progression.... When do you use different chords like an extended chord of maybe a 9chord or a 11 chord....

[Jimmy blue note]

Chords often substitute within chord families.
I III- and VI are often referred to as Tonic Family chords because they share so many essential chord tones with one another.
II and IV are the subdominant family because they too share many notes and convey a similar harmonic vibe.
V and VII are the dominant chords, full of movement and used for their close need to find resolution to the I tonic chord.

You can often substitute within family groupings: IV V I, or II V III (which has the sound of the first inversion of I if you play it in root position).
Best thing, experiment and let your ear find the chords within these family groupings that work for you. Let your ear be the final word and develop your ear from day one.

As far as tensions, that's SO much a matter of taste that to take any gospel word at this point in your learning is to deprive you of the impression and association with tensions and sound. But again, tensions are a matter of taste, diatonic tensions are the most 'inside' and the more foreign to your parent scale (chromatic) the more tension you'll be playing with.

That's a generalization. Start there and build up slowly.

[pauln]

Jimmy's counsel is wise; the way I would say it;
ignore rules you can't evaluate yet. Just explore,
discover, test, and accumulate what sound good.

Except performing, nothing's quite like discovery
of a new sound, finding tunes for testing it, and
internalizing to use it effectively and beautifully.

[Christian Miller]

I have a question about chord substitutions.
What different chords can be used to replace the II or the V in a II V I progression.... When do you use different chords like an extended chord of maybe a 9chord or a 11 chord....

This is a question that could answered in a dozen theoretical ways

but I think one of the most useful things I’ve found is comparing different versions of the same tune. You’ll often find a surprisingly large number of differences from chart to chart.

sorry to shill my latest video, but there’s an example in this. Go to 13:02

have look and a listen to how these different versions relate

[Christian Miller]

I’m also very very amused by the notion that anything I ever do on JGO could be described as ‘trying to be cool.’ Oh man, stop it, you’re killing me haha.

[pingu]

Chords often substitute within chord families.
I III- and VI are often referred to as Tonic Family chords because they share so many essential chord tones with one another.
II and IV are the subdominant family because they too share many notes and convey a similar harmonic vibe.
V and VII are the dominant chords, full of movement and used for their close need to find resolution to the I tonic chord.

You can often substitute within family groupings: IV V I, or II V III (which has the sound of the first inversion of I if you play it in root position).
Best thing, experiment and let your ear find the chords within these family groupings that work for you. Let your ear be the final word and develop your ear from day one.

As far as tensions, that's SO much a matter of taste that to take any gospel word at this point in your learning is to deprive you of the impression and association with tensions and sound. But again, tensions are a matter of taste, diatonic tensions are the most 'inside' and the more foreign to your parent scale (chromatic) the more tension you'll be playing with.

That's a generalization. Start there and build up slowly.

That is such a good reply ....

[Bobby Timmons]

Basically you can do whatever you want as long as it sounds good and suits the context of the tune.

It's always good practice to try to get a color tone such as the 9th in most chords.

The 5 chord is the go to instance for alterations. Stick any alteration on there and see if it sounds good and resolves well.

Examples are:

diminshed - b9
melodic minor - #11 with lydian dominant, or every alteration with alt
whole tone - #5 etc.

After that you should be looking to alter on other chords to build a jazzy sound. You can alter the 2. A basic way is melodic minor instead of dorian. Or you can tonicize it with other minor scales if the sequence lands on it. (I'm still scheming and looking for suggestions for more possibilities of altering the 2.)

You can also alter the 1 chord with extensions such as #11 and #5.

[PatrickWD]

A very common chord substitution is the tritone substitution.

A tritone sub is replacing a chord with a chord a tritone (#4) away.

So if the original ii v i is: Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, you can use: Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7 (tritone sub on the V).
It's also possible to precede the Db7 with its II: Abm7 Db7 Cmaj7.

Tritone sub dominants usually use extensions from the lydian dominant scale : 9 #11. So you can use Dm9 Db9#11 Cmaj9.
While "normal dominants" use either the altered scale: b9 #9 #5 or the half diminished scale: b9 13.
But there's no absolute rules here. As others has already said: use your ears and find out what sounds you like.
Not all subs works with all melodies, so you have to take the melody notes in consideration as well.


Another sub is the "backdoor II V": for Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 that would be Fm7 Bb7 Cmaj7.

[ragman1]

I have a question about chord substitutions.
What different chords can be used to replace the II or the V in a II V I progression.... When do you use different chords like an extended chord of maybe a 9chord or a 11 chord....

https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jaz...-substitution/

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Voice Leading for Guitar, John Thomas.

Amazon.com

[pauln]

The three transcendentals of the ancients were
Truth
Goodness
Beauty
In the world of Jazz music, those things might respectively correspond to
Authenticity
Appropriateness
Allure
For every venue, audience, band, and song , one may seek the relative balance of those three things. If imagined as the vertices of an equilateral triangle, the relative balance may be thought as a position within the triangle, ordering the relative favor of the three transcendentals.

Sometimes an older audience and an old song may suggest a leaning toward authenticity. A younger crowd somewhat new to Jazz might like a more alluring sound. Sometimes the venue will have feelings about what is appropriate. The band may make its own determinations for some songs.

When practicing or rehearsing it is a fine idea to do so from emphasis of each trancendental in order to prepare and learn how. It's not a bad exercise to take a song and think about just what kinds of elements of your playing and their variation can shift the song towards or away from the sounds of authenticity, appropriateness, and allure.

[mr. beaumont]

I have a question about chord substitutions.
What different chords can be used to replace the II or the V in a II V I progression.... When do you use different chords like an extended chord of maybe a 9chord or a 11 chord....

So to get back to the OP-- lots of good info in post #2 right off the bat--

To break down further, you seem to have two questions here-- one about substitutions, and then one about extensions. Interestingly enough, a lot of the time the answer for both is voice leading, as suggested by jazzjourney

I'm not sure what level you are at currently, so I'll make my post from the most very basic level and if that's too simple, let me know, and there's a lot of folks who will be excited to go deeper, I'm sure

Ok, so chord progression is Dm7, G7, Cmaj7

First let's try some voice leading: try Dm7 (x5356x) G13 (3x345x) C6/9 (x3223x)

Listen to that top note move down. That's voice leading.

Let's try keeping that voice on top constant, as that sounds good too...

Dm9 (x5355x) G13 (3x345x) Cmaj7 (x3545x)

Now, let's juice up that dominant a bit...

Dm9 (x5355x) G7b13 (3x344x) C6/9 (x3223x)

Now, a tritone sub for the G7:

Dm9 (x5355x) Db9 (x4344x) C6/9 (x3223x)

Other notes can move as well, obviously. Put a flat 9 on the dominant chord, listen to how nice it resolves down to the 5th on the I chord, for example.