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  1. #1

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    hah...emotions are completely subjective...but have to hand it to the guy for his presentation..well done

    i was expecting pachelbels canon

    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 07-23-2020 at 05:15 PM. Reason: sp-

  4. #3

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    nope

  5. #4

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    Beethoven was pretty good with chords.

    Saddest, this is what came to mind.


  6. #5

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    Saddest, my ass :-)

  7. #6

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    People confuse sadness with sentimentality or depressing melancholy. It's neither. Sadness is usually characterised by simplicity and is never sentimental.

    This is fairly sad. The pianist is blind and it's an elegy for the victims of the tsunami of 2011 in Japan. He composed it himself. It's entirely derivative, of course, but the thing is that it's genuine, and that's what one feels. Dammit, even the major section is sad!


  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    hah...emotions are completely subjective...but have to hand it to the guy for his presenation..well done

    i was expecting pachelbels canon

    cheers
    Of course things like 'saddest... blablabla... ever' are exeggerations...

    Every experience is subjective (especially perceptio of arts).. not only emotional.

    but there are lots of conventional things in culture which form quite distinctive musical languages...
    Classical musci has lots of idioms that have very clear meaning and emotions... the simples is the 'sigh motive' for example (suspension - resolution) and there are lots of thing slike that of different levels that allow to express very complex things through music.

  9. #8

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    By the way, you should check Nobuyuki Tsujii out. He's no popular player but a renowned concert pianist. Worth knowing about.

    Nobuyuki Tsujii - Wikipedia

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    but there are lots of conventional things in culture which form quite distinctive musical languages... Classical music has lots of idioms that have very clear meaning and emotions... the simples is the 'sigh motive' for example (suspension - resolution) and there are lots of thing slike that of different levels that allow to express very complex things through music.
    I agree.
    It is easy to say it's all subjective yet I think if someone said, for example, "Build Me Up Buttercup" was the saddest song of all we would think they didn't understand the meaning of sad.

    We could, of course, understand someone crying when they heard that song---say, in a drugstore--and when we asked why they were crying they said something like, "That was 'our' song. She died so young...." We would understand that emotion. But if someone said, "Those chords, that beat, that is the sound of grief!" I think we would be at a loss. And if they persisted and said, "That is what sadness means to me", well, we probably would shake our heads and mutter, "Alrighty then."



  11. #10

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    the thing described in an article to me is basically plagal turnaround with minor IV preceded by major IV (or IVhalf dim or D7/9 (usually with F# in the base)

    It is common for late romantic music as it had a bit of a folky colour which was in trend...

    There is The Beartles 'If I Fell' - But John Lennon especially liked the turnaround: Nowhere Man, In My Life are things that come to my mind immidiately...


    As for semantics (it is semantics!) to me unprepared change from major to minor (which we basically have here) is always connected with some 'misericordia' effect.. like an expression of a very human compassion... or self-ditraction, humility...

    I remember my childhood impression of Moolight Sonata... I imagined some kind of figure solwly moving that at first seems to raise his spirits with challenge (modulation to E major at 0:40) but then keeps going but suddenly drops the head down. (E minor at 0:45)


  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    People confuse sadness with sentimentality or depressing melancholy. It's neither. Sadness is usually characterised by simplicity and is never sentimental.

    This is fairly sad. The pianist is blind and it's an elegy for the victims of the tsunami of 2011 in Japan. He composed it himself. It's entirely derivative, of course, but the thing is that it's genuine, and that's what one feels. Dammit, even the major section is sad!

    By the way this is exactly what Marc described in his post about a person who suddenly cries on an unexpected song...

    here the guy plays totally corny pop tune - as sentimental and primitive in means as one can be that would fit some Hollywood melodrama... and the effect comes from teh reference to the victims of tsunami (which seems either manipulative trick here or stupidity to me - sorry for being rough...)

  13. #12

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    I'm moved by songs like
    - Goin' home, sung by Paul Robeson
    - Don't forget, by Pat Metheny
    - I loves you Porgy, Keith Jarrett
    - and many, many sung by Billie Holiday, played by Bill Evans, ......

  14. #13

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    Sad songs say so much....


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    By the way this is exactly what Marc described in his post about a person who suddenly cries on an unexpected song...

    here the guy plays totally corny pop tune - as sentimental and primitive in means as one can be that would fit some Hollywood melodrama... and the effect comes from teh reference to the victims of tsunami (which seems either manipulative trick here or stupidity to me - sorry for being rough...)
    You're not rough, you're uninformed.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You're not rough, you're uninformed.
    Oh... then try to inform me.

  17. #16

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    Saddest? FWIW, my money is on:


  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    By the way this is exactly what Marc described in his post about a person who suddenly cries on an unexpected song...

    here the guy plays totally corny pop tune - as sentimental and primitive in means as one can be that would fit some Hollywood melodrama... and the effect comes from teh reference to the victims of tsunami (which seems either manipulative trick here or stupidity to me - sorry for being rough...)
    As a long-time American admirer of pianist Nobuyuki Tsujii (Nobu) I feel compelled to put in a word here.

    This performance is an elegy to the victims of Japan's earthquake/tsunami in March 2011, an original composition by the pianist when he made his debut recital in Carnegie Hall in November of that year. Tsujii is not a sentimental person and is very popular in classical piano, especially in his native Japan. Born blind, he is unpretentious and widely admired for his musical finesse and sincerity.

    Nobuyuki Tsujii International Fans

  19. #18

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    A.................................A+
    It's my party and I'll cry if I want to

    D .........................Dm
    cry if I want to cry if I want to

    Now that's sad. Note how the changes all hit on the word "cry"--how deep is that?

    Danny W.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    A.................................A+
    It's my party and I'll cry if I want to

    D .........................Dm
    cry if I want to cry if I want to

    Now that's sad. Note how the changes all hit on the word "cry"--how deep is that?

    Danny W.
    I love that song!

  21. #20

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    https://blog.landr.com/emotional-chord-progressions/


    I must admit, as a songwriter I am fascinated by chord progressions. Or sometimes just a particular change. What I know best can sometimes feel "old hat", so I sometimes try something different just to see what it's like.
    Articles like this are worth it to me if they give me one idea that may turn out to be one bit of one song. ;o)

  22. #21

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    There is wealth of beautiful and really unique (in lack of a better word) harmonies in the music of Edu Lobo (Pra dizer adeus....) , Jobim, Guinga, Ivan Lins -
    Saudade is the word.

  23. #22

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    Saudade is often translated as nostalgia.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Oh... then try to inform me.
    I could inform you, in gruesome detail, but it's not for me to do your homework.

    The word sad is related to sorrow and grief. Sentimentality, on the other hand, is about nostalgia, romanticism, idealism, and so on. They are completely different. If you said to parents who were upset because they had lost a child that they were merely being 'sentimental' god knows what would happen.

    Then consider this piano player. Obviously you don't know who he is. He's a world renowned classical concert pianist who can play the deepest and most difficult pieces flawlessly by ear. If you think such a mind would then descend into mawkish sentimentality at the loss of so many of his people in the tsunami, including those he knew, then I have nothing to say. It's not a 'pop song' and it's only a gross uncomprehending ignorance that would suggest it.

    Enough? No doubt you'll have some clever answer but it doesn't really bother me. For those who have ears to hear, let them hear.


  25. #24

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    You want sad, yet beautiful?

    Greg Brown -- Who Killed Cock Robin


  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by WorldNobuyukiTsujiiFans
    As a long-time American admirer of pianist Nobuyuki Tsujii (Nobu) I feel compelled to put in a word here.

    This performance is an elegy to the victims of Japan's earthquake/tsunami in March 2011, an original composition by the pianist when he made his debut recital in Carnegie Hall in November of that year. Tsujii is not a sentimental person and is very popular in classical piano, especially in his native Japan. Born blind, he is unpretentious and widely admired for his musical finesse and sincerity.

    Nobuyuki Tsujii International Fans
    It is all great information and probably he is a great unpretentious personality but that does not make that music any better.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I could inform you, in gruesome detail, but it's not for me to do your homework.

    The word sad is related to sorrow and grief. Sentimentality, on the other hand, is about nostalgia, romanticism, idealism, and so on. They are completely different. If you said to parents who were upset because they had lost a child that they were merely being 'sentimental' god knows what would happen.

    Then consider this piano player. Obviously you don't know who he is. He's a world renowned classical concert pianist who can play the deepest and most difficult pieces flawlessly by ear. If you think such a mind would then descend into mawkish sentimentality at the loss of so many of his people in the tsunami, including those he knew, then I have nothing to say. It's not a 'pop song' and it's only a gross uncomprehending ignorance that would suggest it.

    Enough? No doubt you'll have some clever answer but it doesn't really bother me. For those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

    So many words...

    I have ears... that is my problem.

    And my ears can tell me everything, I do not need to read names, titles, credentials and biographies to justify bad music.


    Sentimentality is common... I hate 'The Schindler's List' and its soundtrack as find it comfortable hollywoodish pulp made to quiet the possible remorses of modern fed up consumers and makers using all the manipulative tools of cinema but I still cried when I watched it...

    It is very simple... and does not make it good.

  28. #27

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    The article in the OP made some sense as it discussed an idiom.

    But now people just put in the songs that makes them feel sad... who cares really?

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    The article in the OP made some sense as it discussed an idiom.

    But now people just put in the songs that makes them feel sad... who cares really?
    So should we all EXPLAIN it to YOU why we feel that these songs evoke "sad" feelings in us ? Would
    that make more sense to you and why should WE care that you do not care ?

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    The article in the OP made some sense as it discussed an idiom.

    But now people just put in the songs that makes them feel sad... who cares really?
    I agree we have drifted. (And I have been part of that.) In the OP, the sadness is inherent in the chord progression itself. (That is the claim, anyway.) Not in a lyric or vocal melody sung over it.

    I found it interesting that he calls this "the Willie Nelson turnaround". Willie has written a lot of sad songs and this is something that seems fitting to him. Am D9 Fm C (one bar each) is not chipper, any way you slice it.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by gitman
    So should we all EXPLAIN it to YOU why we feel that these songs evoke "sad" feelings in us ? Would
    that make more sense to you and why should WE care that you do not care ?
    Yes, it would make more sense for me. Becaus eit would be more of a discussion.

    People lost ability to kead conversation, they take everything as an insult.

    We all have the right to express opinions, right?

    It seems we live in the times when everyone has the right to be an idiot (me included sometimes), but no-one has the right to tell him about it.


    Lets relax... I did not instult that Japanese pianist, he might be great personality but I think music is bad (no, not that I do not like it and it is the matte rof taste, I think it is bad).
    I think the arguments of ragman1 are poor in that context (though I like ragman1's playing) as he tries to convince me that music is good because everything around it is good. No, it does not get better because of that.


    and finally... yes, the OP had quite simple but interesting attempet to talk about the musical semantics as language. Very rare topic here... and it slides away...

    I do not care.. becasue it is forum and I really do not care.. I may seem a bit provocative but I consider it is partly serious, partly a joke...

    Hope, really hope that people are not being insulted... but on the other hand I am already beyond the point to really care about it.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I agree.
    It is easy to say it's all subjective yet I think if someone said, for example, "Build Me Up Buttercup" was the saddest song of all we would think they didn't understand the meaning of sad.

    We could, of course, understand someone crying when they heard that song---say, in a drugstore--and when we asked why they were crying they said something like, "That was 'our' song. She died so young...." We would understand that emotion. But if someone said, "Those chords, that beat, that is the sound of grief!" I think we would be at a loss. And if they persisted and said, "That is what sadness means to me", well, we probably would shake our heads and mutter, "Alrighty then."



    Build me up buttercup is a song about involuntary isolation .. It's the feeling of walking thru a sunlight park with children laughing and playing while all you're black and only aware of hope fading to nothing inside you ... It's putting on a smiley face in the midst of depression.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I love that song!
    First hit single for both Ms. Gore and producer Quincy Jones.

    He also produced "You Don't Own Me," another hit for Lesley.

    Danny W.

  34. #33

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    Jonah -

    I wasn't trying to convince you, I was just putting the thing in context. If you don't like that sort of music, that's fine, but, frankly, your criticism went beyond that. You reduced that piece to a pop song and said using the tsunami deaths was a sort of manipulative trick... Sorry, but that's disgraceful.

    I know what you mean, don't think I don't. If you come to that piece cold then, all right, it's just a pretty little tune, very simple and perhaps obvious harmonies, but you surely can't deny it was attractive and conveyed sorrow. Anyone who thought it didn't would be rather lacking in human emotion in my opinion.

    The boy is blind and a skilled classical pianist and also quite young. Also, the Japanese, underneath the rigidity, are very emotional people. I suppose Tsujii could have written something with greater intellectual gravitas - in fact I'm quite sure he could - but he didn't. He kept it very, very simple and heartfelt. You heard the reaction of the crowd to it. Further, I don't think there is one reviewer I've read who said that it wasn't beautiful to them.

    You say I try to justify the quality of the music by describing its context. Of course I am. Any review of classical music is very often accompanied by a description of how and when it was written, at what point in the composer's life, and under what conditions or state of health, and so on. This is usual, it's normal, and people benefit by knowing these things; it helps them understand the music better.

    Apart from all this there's also the fact that he played it beautifully. Even if you don't like that kind of thing you surely can't deny that. Incidentally, I think the title of the video - 'Pianist in tears!' - is misleading. It was far more likely to be sweat coming off him than tears and many have pointed that out.

    I said I thought you were uninformed. I believe you were. I think you put on the tune knowing nothing about it and rejected it outright because you thought it was shallow. I don't believe it was shallow at all if you understand it. But it's up to you... and I could be wrong, of course.
    Last edited by ragman1; 07-24-2020 at 11:44 PM.

  35. #34

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    But, to go back to your very good point about discussing chord sequences, I believe volumes have been written about the psychological effects of music. I don't know why a particular chord, or combinations of sounds, should evoke sorrow, joy, or other emotions. Perhaps there is someone here who does.

  36. #35

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    And if we're going to go popular, try this.


  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny W.
    A.................................A+
    It's my party and I'll cry if I want to

    D .........................Dm
    cry if I want to cry if I want to

    Now that's sad. Note how the changes all hit on the word "cry"--how deep is that?

    Danny W.
    That was my favourite tune when I was 4

    Incidentally, I always find the melancholy of ABBA songs rather sophisticated

  38. #37

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    The really sad songs don't have or need words...

  39. #38

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    Ah but what makes ABBA such classic pop perfection is the way the words work against or undercut the music...

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yes, it would make more sense for me. Becaus eit would be more of a discussion.

    People lost ability to kead conversation, they take everything as an insult.

    We all have the right to express opinions, right?

    It seems we live in the times when everyone has the right to be an idiot (me included sometimes), but no-one has the right to tell him about it.


    Lets relax... I did not instult that Japanese pianist, he might be great personality but I think music is bad (no, not that I do not like it and it is the matte rof taste, I think it is bad).
    I think the arguments of ragman1 are poor in that context (though I like ragman1's playing) as he tries to convince me that music is good because everything around it is good. No, it does not get better because of that.


    and finally... yes, the OP had quite simple but interesting attempet to talk about the musical semantics as language. Very rare topic here... and it slides away...

    I do not care.. becasue it is forum and I really do not care.. I may seem a bit provocative but I consider it is partly serious, partly a joke...

    Hope, really hope that people are not being insulted... but on the other hand I am already beyond the point to really care about it.
    Everyone seems to feel that 'personal taste' is the only arbiter, and the truth is I'd be the first to hold my hands up and say I have no taste at all when listening to classical music (in fact, I have no taste at all.)

    So I'll listen to some Mozart played by jazz piano players


    And I'll think 'oh sounds nice. I like Mozart.'

    And my wife laughs and says 'bless them they have no feel for the phrasing at all.'

    A bit like how a classical player might have no feeling for swing?

    Point being there are people with a more refined sensibility - in jazz, classical, EDM - whatever you can imagine. You might not hear it, but they can. That's quite a lot of the input I had when studying classical singing - do this here, don't do this. Phrase this like this, and so on. Lots of interpretation coaching by people who could hear more than me.

    Look, before I get some angry stanning, I'm aware Jarrett has acquitted himself well AFAIK in classical piano with his recordings for ECM, I'm just saying you might be able to play the notes, but you don't necessarily hear like a virtuoso in that idiom. For some reason people think it's enough to play the dots in classical, and this is no more true of classical than jazz.

    Actually listening again, it's pretty clunky to my ears, too. But TBF Mozart's really really hard to do well.

    Within a given aesthetic it is entirely reasonable to talk about 'good' and 'bad'; it is possible to talk about good and bad classical performances, and it is possible to talk about good or bad bebop, for instance.

    Anyway, people do take things very personally. No doubt someone will think I'm saying Chick can't play or something.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-24-2020 at 06:40 PM.

  41. #40

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  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    At least there is no argument here. Thanks to Nigel, we now know that D minor IS the saddest of all keys. No further discussion needed really, LOL.
    cheers!

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Build me up buttercup is a song about involuntary isolation .. It's the feeling of walking thru a sunlight park with children laughing and playing while all you're black and only aware of hope fading to nothing inside you ... It's putting on a smiley face in the midst of depression.
    I get that the SINGER is sad---he's heartbroken---but the song is joyous to hear.

  44. #43

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    Dunno about progressions, but unequivocally the most depressing verse to a song I've ever encountered is to Street of Dreams. I will never play it unless there's a gun to my head, and if it is sung on a gig I'm on I'll accompany and pray it's over with fast.

    The tune proper is a classic though. Love it...

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    'It's sort of Mach'...

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I get that the SINGER is sad---he's heartbroken---but the song is joyous to hear.

    I was mainly writing all that stuff to just make a point and exaggerating wildly, but the thing is .. to some extent it is there

  47. #46

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    I thought this was supposed to be about chord progressions? Being a jazz forum, etc...

  48. #47

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    "The saddest chord progression ever?"

    A secret only Carlos Santana knows.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I thought this was supposed to be about chord progressions? Being a jazz forum, etc...

    Yeah ... Let's ignore the sadness and anything vaguely resembling emotion. Keep jazz discussion 100% technical .. Like what melodic minor scale to apply where.

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    "The saddest chord progression ever?"

    A secret only Carlos Santana knows.
    Then it is ii-V?

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah ... Let's ignore the sadness and anything vaguely resembling emotion. Keep jazz discussion 100% technical .. Like what melodic minor scale to apply where.
    You're quite right, I left out the word sad. I thought this was supposed to be about sad chord progressions, or chords that produced the feeling of sadness.

    But actually that's not right either because the title of the thread only asks if the music in the video is the saddest progression ever...



    ... and the answer to that is I've no idea. Could be, but I doubt it. I'm sure there are sadder sounds than that.