The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76
    joelf Guest
    A singer recorded my song and sang 'lay down...' instead of 'lie down..' The 'y' in lay bumps into the hard 'd' in down. Plus she didn't sing the melody right. 1st recording w/the lyric, and now other singers will think that's how the song goes. Drag.

    But
    she's a sweetheart, paid me above ASCAP royalties---and nobody owes anyone nothin'...
    Last edited by joelf; 06-01-2020 at 04:11 PM.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    A singer recorded my song and sang 'lay down...' instead of 'lie down..' The 'y' in lay bumps into the hard 'd' in down. Plus she didn't sing the melody right. 1st recording w/the lyric, and now other singers will think that's how the song goes. Drag.

    But
    ? she's a sweetheart, paid me above ASCAP royalties---and nobody owes anyone nothin'...
    Congratulations on having your song recorded by a pro.

    The long "I" in English ("eye") can be hard to sing. When Judy Garland sang "I Feel A Song Coming On" and got toward the end where the title phrase was repeated, she stopped saying "I" at all and it's more like "Ah", which is much easier to sing.

    "Lay down" works well in "Lay Down Sally."

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Congratulations on having your song recorded by a pro.

    The long "I" in English ("eye") can be hard to sing. When Judy Garland sang "I Feel A Song Coming On" and got toward the end where the title phrase was repeated, she stopped saying "I" at all and it's more like "Ah", which is much easier to sing.

    "Lay down" works well in "Lay Down Sally."
    Mark, yes, that's the way to sing the diphthong "I" as in ah ee, it has both sounds. A long held "I" is a long ah followed by a short ee. Not sure I could sing it otherwise or it just sounds like ah or ee, it really need both sounds. "I" also needs both sounds as a spoken word.

    I both struggle with my voice and enjoy singing. When I'm going to record my voice, I do warm up exercises first. Also, I'll sometimes pre-record the melody with my guitar as guide tones that I hear in my monitor mix while I record my voice. Whatever it takes to get it done. Singing live though, no training wheels for that.

    Warm up... I have patterns in MuseScore that I sing vowels to, I use headphones and a mic. I find it best to have the feedback that the mic and headphones give me.

  5. #79
    joelf Guest
    You always have to go with what sings. It's like an extension of the logic of what trips off the tongue in speech---Lennon-McCartney; Livingston-Evans.

    I learned some things, aside from the aforementioned Jimmy Norman, from a force of nature named Ann Ruckert. I paid to be in her class for a month. She was about getting people to sing---together or individually. I resisted at first b/c I embarrass easy if something's not my 'thing'. I brought a vocalist to the 1st class to sing my songs, and Ann was offended. But I loosened up after a while and didn't sound that bad. But she also made us aware of what sings and what doesn't in her critiques.

    I also read a lot of books by or interviewing songwriters. Sondheim can be a hyper-critical little bitch---but he's also brilliant, and very successful (artistically) at the craft for 70 years. One of his credos I've adopted: 'Dull and smooth, rather than clever and awkward'.

    That speaks volumes---and sums up why we rewrite. If you didn't leave at least a few of your ideas on the legal pad or in Word b/c they just didn't help or fit the song you just don't get it...

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    My lyric was '...So I can lie down in shelter...'. 'Lay down' doesn't make it--I'd never write that for a song about lying down in comfort, away from storms and troubles. Fine point, perhaps, but it matters.
    .
    I remember the distinction: to lie is to recline; to lay is to place.
    But for a singer, if "lay" is more singable, then "lay" it shall be.
    And if you don't want that, don't give 'em the option! (Don't write "lie down" in the first place. There are other ways to say that.)

    When I was giving homilies in Catholic church I checked my writing for any use of "are our" (as in 'what are our priorities?'). I was afraid I might bark it like a dog: "arr arr!" So I just avoided that. I found another way to say it. Singers can be touchy about things THEY find tricky to sing. (It's not the same for everyone.)

    Correct grammar matters much less to singers than does singability.

  7. #81
    joelf Guest
    I wasn't at the date, or I'd have corrected it. It was my ass for not noticing it on her demo.

    I'm reading a lot of war stories of songs being ruined or misunderstood in both volumes of Paul Zollo's interview collection, Songwriters on Songwriting. Some name names, some don't. There are a lot of ways to ruin songs on recording than singing a wrong vowel. The 1st recording of a song is a document---and mistakes/misunderstanding of meaning may be aped---or assumed to be right. That's what songwriters who are covered, or write for others, dread. The recording is the final verse. It's the 1st tree you hear fall in the forest.

    A former Dylan roadie I knew regaled me with stories of Dylan laughing at perceived meanings in his songs. Visions of Johanna was supposed to be about the downfall of America. Dylan chuckled as he told this guy he was only writing about people waiting for some friends to come over...

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I'm reading a lot of war stories of songs being ruined or misunderstood in both volumes of Paul Zollo's interview collection, Songwriters on Songwriting. Some name names, some don't.
    My library just re-opened yesterday. (It had been closed since March.) Pat Pattison's book on rhyming awaited me, as well as Zollo's "Conversations with Tom Petty." Look forward to both. Read Zollo's 'songwriters on songwriting' years ago but don't retain much. A re-read is in order.

    Songs are funny things. So many moving parts----the melody, the rhythm, the chords, the feel, the lyric, the vocal...

    Actually, something we haven't talked about is the difference between the days when The Sheet Music was the song and days when The Record is the song. A lot of great records might seem trite when reduced to sheet music but as records, they work like gangbusters.

    A favorite example. One of my favorite records of all time. The groove and the vocal carry the day. The lyrics are no great shakes. ("I don't care about your thoughts / I just want to satisfy your faults" ??? Some give that rhyme as 'faults / pulse'.) But man, this record kills.


  9. #83

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    Rhyming dictionaries.
    Do you have one?
    Do you use it?
    I have a paperback edition of Clement Wood's.

    Just heard about wikirhymer, which one can try free. I gather it's a subscription service but I haven't looked into the details.

    WikiRhymer - World's best rhyming dictionary

    I suppose one advantage of this would be that you can have it with you wherever you have a mobile device. That's a benefit. (I'm not recommending it; I'm very much a homebody and think one good rhyming dictionary is enough for me. But some pro songwriters say they find it useful.)

  10. #84

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    A bit more about wikirhymer (from the site):

    >>>>To access ALL WikiRhymer data, you must "Go Pro." It's only $14.00 per year and there are no Adsense ads either!
    Non-Pro users can only see the first 3 sets of end rhymes, the first 3 sets of near rhymes, and the first 3 sets of near end rhymes for any single word search. While we do "load" the "best" rhymes in those first 3 sets, non-Pro users are missing out on 10s of thousands of good rhymes.<<<

    #sands of perfectly good rhymes!

  11. #85

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    Some songwriters work with pop stars....


  12. #86
    joelf Guest
    Yes to all: I use rhyming dictionaries and thesauri, dictionaries. But I'm in a new phase now, trying to not be as reliant on rhyme. (I actually find it works best for comedy, like Irish bar waltzes I've written only lyrics for). Not worrying about rhyme can help tap into the unconscious---let it rip, figure it out after.

    Yeah, a record can make a song---also, alas, mask its weaknesses.

    Back to writing, though: Whatever works, use it. And tell the inner critic to shut the f^^k up! You'll give him the floor at the detail tweak phase...

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Rhyming dictionaries.
    Do you have one?
    Do you use it?
    I have a paperback edition of Clement Wood's.
    I have the same one. I use it sometimes. That and a thesaurus are good for getting out of road blocks and generating ideas.

  14. #88

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    Ascending bass lines. I like them. Some of my favorite tunes contain ascending bass lines. "Ain't Misbehavin'" and "Makin' Whoopee" for starters.

    A short article on them, with examples.
    http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/ABL.html#:~:text=Ascending%20bass%20line%20progres sions%20are,-3"%20note%20bass%20lines.

    I am more apt to use descending bass lines in my own songs---and there are more common descending bass lines than ascending ones--but that's another story.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Chord progressions.
    Songwriters use them.
    I-vi-ii-V is the backbone of many a standard, and I-IV-V is the basis of many a blues (and many a rockabilly / early rock'n'roll song).

    Which progressions are you partial to?
    Do certain progressions suggest definite moods to you?
    I avoid cliche changes unless I'm deliberately trying to evoke this or that mood, and even then I much prefer to throw a twist in to keep from sounding generic. Generally, when I'm fleshing out the harmony I look for chords that have counterpoint happening between the bassline and the upper-voice leading; that stuff tickles my ears.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    A funny bit about the I V vi IV progression

    You couldn't get away from that staleness in the 90s. Green Day, Bush, Better Than Ezra ... done to death.

    Once a song of mine starts sounding too much like another, I launch a rewrite, and if that doesn't work I file and forget it.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    You couldn't get away from that staleness in the 90s. Green Day, Bush, Better Than Ezra ... done to death.

    Once a song of mine starts sounding too much like another, I launch a rewrite, and if that doesn't work I file and forget it.
    Well, the I-vi-ii-V was done to death in the '20s and '30s and yet a lot of good tunes were written to those changes later on. (And in the '20s and '30s, of course.) It can still be used today, as can the I-IV-V progression. The song is the thing, not the chord progression.

  18. #92

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    The other night my wife and I watched the movie "The Nice Guys." It was set in the late '70s and the opening music (no vocal) was from "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" by The Temptations. Great song. LONG song (nearly 12 minutes). The hit single was shortened from the album version, and IT ran nearly 7 minutes!



    For our purposes, it's worth noting that this is a ONE-CHORD song. As was Aretha Franklin's "Chain of Fools" and CCR's "Run Through The Jungle," Bob Marley's "Get Up, Stand Up", and Harry Nilsson's "Coconut" ("She put the lime in the coconut and drank 'em both up...").

    One-chord songs are rare but surely can work.











    Then there are songs that use one-chord for either the verse or chorus. (Raunchy, Give Peace A Chance, Randy Newman's Mama Told Me Not To Come, Midnight Rider, Black Friday, Low Rider)

  19. #93
    joelf Guest
    And I'm a Man...

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    And I'm a Man...
    Or "Mannish Boy"----same thing, just called one thing sometimes and sometimes the other.


  21. #95

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    Another one-chord blues, "Commit A Crime" by Howlin' Wolf



    Here are Jeff Beck and Mick Jagger doing at in performance at the White House.


  22. #96
    joelf Guest
    In Zollo's book I'm reading about a (relatively) new wave of singer-songwriters, like Aimee Mann and Chrissie Hynde. Anyone know their work?

    Re: Elvis Costello: I honestly haven't listened closely, but I hope it gets better than Almost Blue. Sorry, but I strongly dislike gimmicky lyrics like those, and it was no fun watching the great Chet Baker croon this in a drug haze---like it was 'deep' or something.

    But if the man's got better stuff I'd love to hear it. He was bright, humble, and reverently knowledgeable about the GASB writers in the interview...

  23. #97
    joelf Guest
    I'm digging Chrissie Hynde. She has more---well, balls. I like the voice, the pain and projection. It's a certain kind of pounding rock (that I'd probably love to drive to), but then she can do this:



    Aimee so far a letdown, after Zollo was raving about what a great melodist she is. Didn't hear it (on Humpty Dumpty, or the other 3 I couldn't quite get all the way through). I also found her voice prissy and kind of timid. Excellent, intelligent lyrics, though---which makes me want to try her again. Maybe I was too hasty and completely wrong...

  24. #98
    joelf Guest
    This is pretty cool. The man knows what he's doing, and can tell a story...



    And this one's a straight-up tear-jerker right out of the ASB. I like his voice, too...



    And this one really sucker punched me! Went the other way with it after the 1st verse...


  25. #99
    joelf Guest
    Patti Smith: I knew of her for years as a sort of uber-intelligent odd duck, but never listened. Figured I'd start at the beginning with Horses. I did like her wounded voice---it had guts. But the songs seemed repetitive musically, great lyrics notwithstanding, just sort of unmelodic.

    But this one grabbed and moved me---and made me want to hear more this good from her. Everything comes together in this one---and it has a melody I'd cover in a heartbeat...


  26. #100

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    Chrissie Hynde is one hell of a songwriter. Musically interesting, lyrically dimensional.

    Loves me some Elvis, too. Only after I took a few lessons from Raj did I hear @ 1:34 in "Alison", above, the guitarist playing a pretty standard ii-V-I lick, but I love the song all the same.