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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    You see this as an argument from authority ("I'm the boss and I say so.")
    That isn't an argument from authority. An argument from authority posits the correctness of a point by citing the support of an "authority" in the field.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I see it as a matter of competence. Elton John is actually a very good songwriter. He knows how to do that. I don't expect the judgment of people who haven't written a bunch of good songs to be as good as that as someone who has. (Judgment about songwriting.)
    He certainly was a great songwriter. And I regard his opinion in that field as meaningful. However, nothing he's written in the last three decades touches his output in the first half of the 70s.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Competent people have their limitations, of course, but so does everyone else. Given that we are ALL limited, there's a prima facie case to make for the heuristic of giving more weight to the judgments of competent people than those who are incompetent or whose competence is unknown. This is why serious music students want to study with great teachers. It's possible that some unknown player is great and a great teacher too, but the odds are long against that. (And if the person is truly a great player and teacher, word will get around. And that word will matter to the extent that those spreading it are seen as competent.)
    Well it's a good thing I wasn't saying otherwise. What I was saying was that Elton should lead by example, rather than touring on career highlights made forty years ago. Hope that clarifies things.

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  3. #52

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    Maybe I am wrong historically I never really analyzed that...

    as kid (and I was a kid in early 80s) I was suddenly involved in The Beatles and that moved to the msuci of the 60's-70's... as I am not from USA or UK I did not realise much if this or that group was British or American..

    But what I listened to was everything that was around (in last years of USSR with no Internet)... and so I listened to The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, early Elton John, early David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple (though never really liked them), Queen, Animals and so on... there were also Creedence, The Doors, Elvis, Hendrix so some other American groups but those that are mostly post-British invaision...

    Nothing specifically American (except Elvis) - which is for me Ray Charles or Joni Mitchell.. I do not even mention The Band or something like that... mostly because this was not that much around on the surface.


    Later I began to listen to early jazz and I got interested in American music: in blues, soul, country, rock'n'roll etc.


    Andf I noticed the difference in approach between British groups (or American but influenced by British invasion) and more tradtional American ones..

    It was the performance thing: British groups sounded more like the composition and arrangement is the most important element of the song. They tried to make a song interestin as it is and original arrangement as specific as possible. So to say to make score... there are lots of cover - and beautiful ones - over popular songs of The Beatle or Elton John or Queen... but still mostly originals are strikingly authentic.
    In that sence the perform is a part of an arrangement - if I can say so - a bit awkwardly...

    If we take American performance... the biggest part of it is the interepretation...
    the songs are often written very idiomatically with lots of stule cliches and the most attractive thing about it usually is the performer and performance, groove, improvization, intonation etc....

    One of the examples: if I listen to covers made by The Beatles of The Stones of the American songs in their early years... they often sound like they were composed by The Beatles or The Stones... they sound like originals and they are very identifiable form othe songs.

    If I liten to Beatles covers made by Ray Charles or Elvis - they sound like whoever composed - they are performed by Ray Charles or Elvis .. their performance is the thing (and often the performance even outshadows the song).

    My idea that it is connected with strong improvizational tradition of American music - in blues, bluegrass, jazz... it's part of mentality...
    Take whatever tune there is and play something else...


    Why I am telling this? Because Elton John is very British in that sense... and some things that are important for him could be just of not interest for performers who care more about the moment of interepretation..

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Maybe I am wrong historically I never really analyzed that...

    as kid (and I was a kid in early 80s) I was suddenly involved in The Beatles and that moved to the msuci of the 60's-70's... as I am not from USA or UK I did not realise much if this or that group was British or American..

    But what I listened to was everything that was around (in last years of USSR with no Internet)... and so I listened to The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, early Elton John, early David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple (though never really liked them), Queen, Animals and so on... there were also Creedence, The Doors, Elvis, Hendrix so some other American groups but those that are mostly post-British invaision...

    Nothing specifically American (except Elvis) - which is for me Ray Charles or Joni Mitchell.. I do not even mention The Band or something like that... mostly because this was not that much around on the surface.


    Later I began to listen to early jazz and I got interested in American music: in blues, soul, country, rock'n'roll etc.


    Andf I noticed the difference in approach between British groups (or American but influenced by British invasion) and more tradtional American ones..

    It was the performance thing: British groups sounded more like the composition and arrangement is the most important element of the song. They tried to make a song interestin as it is and original arrangement as specific as possible. So to say to make score... there are lots of cover - and beautiful ones - over popular songs of The Beatle or Elton John or Queen... but still mostly originals are strikingly authentic.
    In that sence the perform is a part of an arrangement - if I can say so - a bit awkwardly...

    If we take American performance... the biggest part of it is the interepretation...
    the songs are often written very idiomatically with lots of stule cliches and the most attractive thing about it usually is the performer and performance, groove, improvization, intonation etc....

    One of the examples: if I listen to covers made by The Beatles of The Stones of the American songs in their early years... they often sound like they were composed by The Beatles or The Stones... they sound like originals and they are very identifiable form othe songs.

    If I liten to Beatles covers made by Ray Charles or Elvis - they sound like whoever composed - they are performed by Ray Charles or Elvis .. their performance is the thing (and often the performance even outshadows the song).

    My idea that it is connected with strong improvizational tradition of American music - in blues, bluegrass, jazz... it's part of mentality...
    Take whatever tune there is and play something else...


    Why I am telling this? Because Elton John is very British in that sense... and some things that are important for him could be just of not interest for performers who care more about the moment of interepretation..
    That’s an interesting point that I’d never considered.

    I was listening to cream today thinking how good those tunes are as records, with Clapton so much part of the overall arrangement along with lots of other eclectic elements.

    I was felt the strength of British music generally was in word setting across the board.... we are nationally obsessed with lyrics - this is the country of Shakespeare. By the arrangement paints the lyrics.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Different era when developing songwriters had support from record companies and publishers. Elton and his peers didn't have to scrub toilets and then find the time to work on their craft.
    That's what it boils down to.
    People say R&B has become the foundation of popular music. That's like bragging about having herpes.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Maybe I am wrong historically I never really analyzed that...

    as kid (and I was a kid in early 80s) I was suddenly involved in The Beatles and that moved to the msuci of the 60's-70's... as I am not from USA or UK I did not realise much if this or that group was British or American..

    But what I listened to was everything that was around (in last years of USSR with no Internet)... and so I listened to The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, early Elton John, early David Bowie, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple (though never really liked them), Queen, Animals and so on... there were also Creedence, The Doors, Elvis, Hendrix so some other American groups but those that are mostly post-British invaision...

    Nothing specifically American (except Elvis) - which is for me Ray Charles or Joni Mitchell.. I do not even mention The Band or something like that... mostly because this was not that much around on the surface.


    Later I began to listen to early jazz and I got interested in American music: in blues, soul, country, rock'n'roll etc.


    Andf I noticed the difference in approach between British groups (or American but influenced by British invasion) and more tradtional American ones..

    It was the performance thing: British groups sounded more like the composition and arrangement is the most important element of the song. They tried to make a song interestin as it is and original arrangement as specific as possible. So to say to make score... there are lots of cover - and beautiful ones - over popular songs of The Beatle or Elton John or Queen... but still mostly originals are strikingly authentic.
    In that sence the perform is a part of an arrangement - if I can say so - a bit awkwardly...

    If we take American performance... the biggest part of it is the interepretation...
    the songs are often written very idiomatically with lots of stule cliches and the most attractive thing about it usually is the performer and performance, groove, improvization, intonation etc....

    One of the examples: if I listen to covers made by The Beatles of The Stones of the American songs in their early years... they often sound like they were composed by The Beatles or The Stones... they sound like originals and they are very identifiable form othe songs.

    If I liten to Beatles covers made by Ray Charles or Elvis - they sound like whoever composed - they are performed by Ray Charles or Elvis .. their performance is the thing (and often the performance even outshadows the song).

    My idea that it is connected with strong improvizational tradition of American music - in blues, bluegrass, jazz... it's part of mentality...
    Take whatever tune there is and play something else...


    Why I am telling this? Because Elton John is very British in that sense... and some things that are important for him could be just of not interest for performers who care more about the moment of interepretation..
    As a Russian myself, I can see your point very well. I definitely hear the distinction between British and American.

    To me it also shows in general vibe... like if we're talking rock, classic Brit bands always had some sense of urgency in the music. The the best word I can use, urgency. And with arrangements most were going for tight feel, tight rhythm section! Always driving, tight sound, with good melodies.

    In contrast American bands to me always sounded more relaxed, more chilled. It's funny that some of the most powerful and hard hitting American ones were founded by Europeans!

    Me, I grew up on more U.K./European music. Even disco, it was Boney M for me, Jamaicans from Germany, not Donna Summer or Chic who defined the style. All classic rock and pop I like Brits/Europe better. That was until I discovered blues and jazz...

  7. #56

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    The 60's were a long time ago. We're stuck in the 80's now. The 80's was all about showmanship. In the UK it was more 'the look' and language. Musicians were singing, playing, stepping. Now that's all broken down.
    We were playing racially segregated gigs in rock and R&B in the late 80's outside the US. That stopped in 87'.

    What never caught on outside the US were funk bands. Jazz and classical are largely instrumental. A universal language.
    Funk and the culture surrounding it is the only thing we can call our own.

    Americans are funky people. It's music of the working class. In Japan it's ghetto gigolo music.
    Rock is more international. The Beatles were the first rock band. They forged their sound in Germany.

  8. #57

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    I was felt the strength of British music generally was in word setting across the board.... we are nationally obsessed with lyrics - this is the country of Shakespeare. By the arrangement paints the lyrics.
    Interesting.. but it's very specifc lyrics. It's namely lyrics...

    whereas in America there were 'singing poets' like Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen...

    Actually who was obsessed with lyrics is Russian underground rock movement of 70s - 80s that stayed almost unknown for teh Western countries but that influenced tremendously on the generations of late 70's and 80s.
    The thing is that often the lyrics here was at the level of high class poetry and music was only supportive and often very primitive...

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcee
    This is the first I've heard of Post Malone. I like it.
    Malone is brilliant.
    Writing a song about Whitney Houston is timely.

  10. #59

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    I remember watching Deep Purple documentary or something, they were asked about lyrics writing process, Ian Gillan said it's pretty much based how the words would add to the rhythm, the sound of it. The meaning is less important than the sound! I thought that's exactly how it should be.

    Before I could understand English I already fell in love with Western rock music. What the bands were singin about was just a curiosity for me, but really didn't affect if like a band or not.

    Of course now I can check out the lyrics, but it's still not that big of a deal. For example, I don't understand why Bob Dylan is so important to so many people, the music is so and so... If I want a great lyricist, I think Bon Scott wrote the best of 'em, just perfect for rocknroll. I also really enjoy the humor and wit of Louis Jordan tunes and old blues in general. Chuck Berry too! But the music comes first.

    Because of that, I could never fit in in my original country. Russians love their poets, music is just to back them up. Screw that!

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    That's what it boils down to.
    People say R&B has become the foundation of popular music. That's like bragging about having herpes.
    Wait, lol. What?

  12. #61

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    Americans are funky people.
    Really? I thought you are bluegrass fiddle men!

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    Wait, lol. What?
    In one sense he's right: once you got the R&B bug, it's incurable.

    Classic R&B is my favorite stuff, but there's more modern artists who put out really good stuff if one takes the time to hunt it up. Kinda like a few genres I can think of.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Really? I thought you are bluegrass fiddle men!
    Ha, you are aware there are African American population here too right? Bluegrass is for hipsters nowdays, anyway.

  15. #64

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    Bluegrass is for hipsters nowdays, anyway
    for sopisticated Japanese and European hipsters!

  16. #65

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    Ha, you are aware there are African American population here too right?
    Actually I feel bluegrass is really influenced by African-American music... bluegrass has some cool authencity and sophistication and requires a real mastery, taste, sophisticated sense of rythme and syncopation...
    From time to time I like trying learning some bluegrass crosspicking patterns.


    what I do not really dig is staight-ahead country.. something like Johny Cash.
    This kind of music scares me a bit (or rather its audience))))

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    >>>>>“The real artists … are doing it the right way because they are going out and playing live and getting a huge following by playing live shows. And you don’t really see them on social media very much.”He added: “When you listen to even the cheesiest songs from the 50s, 60s and 70s, they are songs.<<<<<<<<


    Read more: Sir Elton John wishes people would write `better songs | Daily Mail Online
    EJ may be reflecting on social media as an addiction and also the source of American creativity in music. In the past in was scenes and circuits. There's been a dry spell for a very long time.
    What popular music does have now is complex stories sometimes.
    Every single thing in the video is real. It's a real a wedding. That's Dicky's ex getting married. The singer is fairly well known in music but he's still a wedding singer.
    Dicky hates her husband. The band isn't being recorded live. That's the only thing that isn't real;



    This song reminds me to never go back to Japan and to never contact anyone I met in music from 82-87.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    EJ may be reflecting on social media as an addiction and also the source of American creativity in music. In the past in was scenes and circuits. There's been a dry spell for a very long time.
    What popular music does have now is complex stories sometimes.
    Every single thing in the video is real. It's a real a wedding. That's Dicky's ex getting married. The singer is fairly well known in music but he's still a wedding singer.
    Dicky hates her husband. The band isn't being recorded live. That's the only thing that isn't real;



    This song reminds me to never go back to Japan and to never contact anyone I met in music from 82-87.
    I can't blame her. I mean I can't imagine Lil Dicky is something you wanna brag about and be too popular with the ladies... Not the brightest, even by hip hop standards.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Yep, when it comes to hip hop there is no shortage of inspiring guitar work. Lil Dicky, Lil Wayne, which one? Dont matter, they all can be guitar gods.

    ummmm... I wouldn't get so excited... ummmmm....he played 2 notes

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I can't blame her. I mean I can't imagine Lil Dicky is something you wanna brag about and be too popular with the ladies... Not the brightest, even by hip hop standards.
    School Boy Records - Wikipedia

    Seems to be pretty smart to me. He didn't sign with a major label and he's making money.
    You can always sign with Satan if you're...smart?
    He wants to write for TV and movies. He's using the rap game to get in.

    Don't hate the player, hate the game!
    I hate the game. I don't want anything to do with the music business. Nothing. I'm not sure I even want a blues gig playing for free.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 04-18-2018 at 03:30 PM.

  21. #70

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    Today's reality is much more about micro social groups which actually do not feel themselves micro as they are absolutely self -suffucient an ddo not need to cross with other groups or mainstreamesr (if there are any)... thanks to Internet first of all.

    of course it concerns more or less stable econimically and socially places.

    What I mean is today people do plenty of incredible things and make groups, meet, communicate and feel fine.

    The audience todau is not in the stadium. It's in the interenet. You can play small appratment concerts and have worldwide audie
    nce.
    All these Fretboard Journal shows, Tiny Desk Concerts etc. I like it. It's connecting people.

    Whay I do not like today is that sales activities became too obvious too via interent...
    before it was sales agents...
    now everybody try to sell oneself on youtube, facebook...
    whereever possible... you can't get rid of it.
    It very seldom looks like he/she just wants to share - you always feel like it's for attracting attention, promotion etc.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papawooly
    ummmm... I wouldn't get so excited... ummmmm....he played 2 notes
    Cmon, it's almost 3, (with that little slide in the end)! And that not to count the guitar face, the dudes been practicing!

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Today's reality is much more about micro social groups which actually do not feel themselves micro as they are absolutely self -suffucient an ddo not need to cross with other groups or mainstreamesr (if there are any)... thanks to Internet first of all.

    of course it concerns more or less stable econimically and socially places.

    What I mean is today people do plenty of incredible things and make groups, meet, communicate and feel fine.

    The audience todau is not in the stadium. It's in the interenet. You can play small appratment concerts and have worldwide audie
    nce.
    All these Fretboard Journal shows, Tiny Desk Concerts etc. I like it. It's connecting people.

    Whay I do not like today is that sales activities became too obvious too via interent...
    before it was sales agents...
    now everybody try to sell oneself on youtube, facebook...
    whereever possible... you can't get rid of it.
    It very seldom looks like he/she just wants to share - you always feel like it's for attracting attention, promotion etc.
    I agree - nicely put.

  24. #73

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    Regarding Elton John's wish for people to write "better songs"....

    There are good songs out there. He probably just doesn't know where to look for them.