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  1. #1

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    Hi!

    I'm currently writing my own composition on Sibelius. I'm new at writing music notation, so i learn only by writing them and then play them with the Transport. I don't really know if the things that i wrote is exactly by the "rules" of writing musical notation.
    I attach one of my finished work. I hope you guys can give me some advice, and some critics about my writing skills. Thanks!

    P.S Sorry for the bad English. Not a native speaker.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I haven't played it, just looked at the score.

    The actual notation looks okay but the bar arrangement is strange. The first three lines have 8 bars, then 7 bars in the next line. Then 8, then 7, then 4, then 5.

    I think maybe that could be better :-)

    The A section has 16 bars, which is fine. Then the B section starts after 2 empty bars. What is that? Or has the second part of the A section got 10 bars?

    There should be a double bar line before the B unless the 2 empty bars are part of the A - in which case the 2.------------- should include them (and there should be a double bar line anyway). If not, those 2 empty bars should be called something (like piano solo) and separated off.

    I think so, anyway. It can get confusing. Only you know how it's supposed to be.

    Please don't say the application you're using won't arrange it properly. Not our problem!

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I haven't played it, just looked at the score.

    The actual notation looks okay but the bar arrangement is strange. The first three lines have 8 bars, then 7 bars in the next line. Then 8, then 7, then 4, then 5.

    I think maybe that could be better :-)

    The A section has 16 bars, which is fine. Then the B section starts after 2 empty bars. What is that? Or has the second part of the A section got 10 bars?

    There should be a double bar line before the B unless the 2 empty bars are part of the A - in which case the 2.------------- should include them (and there should be a double bar line anyway). If not, those 2 empty bars should be called something (like piano solo) and separated off.

    I think so, anyway. It can get confusing. Only you know how it's supposed to be.

    Please don't say the application you're using won't arrange it properly. Not our problem!
    Woah thanks!

    Yup, the 2 bars are indeed part of the A section. I don't know what to do with it, so i assume if i put a B section marker on the 3rd bar, those two bars would be included in the A section.

    And yes, i'm still looking for a way to make the bar arrangement even on every line. Again, still learning how to do it properly.

    Anyway, i do appreciate your opinion and advice. I'll do it right away. Thanks!!

  5. #4

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    Nice logical 4 bar phrases from variations of a few simple melodic motifs.
    As far as layout, always good when possible to keep the new phrase, new section
    starting a new line. What's happening in bars 25-26?

    Would be curious to know how you conceive of the rhythm section and harmony.
    The melody is mostly scale derived which makes each chromatic exception more noticeable.

    Bar 16-17 Cb Db Bb

    2nd ending Bar 17 is interesting: Bb Ab Ab Gb| Ab followed by the return of G natural in Bar 19.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    Nice logical 4 bar phrases from variations of a few simple melodic motifs.
    As far as layout, always good when possible to keep the new phrase, new section
    starting a new line. What's happening in bars 25-26?

    Would be curious to know how you conceive of the rhythm section and harmony.
    The melody is mostly scale derived which makes each chromatic exception more noticeable.

    Bar 16-17 Cb Db Bb

    2nd ending Bar 17 is interesting: Bb Ab Ab Gb| Ab followed by the return of G natural in Bar 19.
    Bars 25-26 supposed to be included in the A section, yet i don't know how to write it. How about the notes? Is there anything wrong with it?

    I would love to send you the chords, but somehow i can't attach the image on this reply. Email, perhaps? Would really love to hear your opinion on that.

    Thanks, btw!

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giovanni Goria View Post
    And yes, i'm still looking for a way to make the bar arrangement even on every line.
    They don't have to be. There can be two bars in the last stave at the end of A. Then B can start a new line and there'll be four bars at the end of it.

    As a matter of interest, is it Cb in the key of Eb? I'd go for B natural, personally, but I could be wrong.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    They don't have to be. There can be two bars in the last stave at the end of A. Then B can start a new line and there'll be four bars at the end of it.

    As a matter of interest, is it Cb in the key of Eb? I'd go for B natural, personally, but I could be wrong.
    Yes. I'm working on it right now. Gonna post the result soon!

    Hahaha! I don't really understand your question at all. Sorry mate!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giovanni Goria View Post
    Yes. I'm working on it right now. Gonna post the result soon!

    Hahaha! I don't really understand your question at all. Sorry mate!
    Oh, it's pretty simple. Before, I was just checking the note values in each bar and they seemed okay. But I noticed you've written a Cb. That's an unusual note more commonly seen in complex keys like Gb.

    I know it's a descending line but I was wondering if it would be written better as a B natural, that's all. Much easier to read.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Oh, it's pretty simple. Before, I was just checking the note values in each bar and they seemed okay. But I noticed you've written a Cb. That's an unusual note more commonly seen in complex keys like Gb.

    I know it's a descending line but I was wondering if it would be written better as a B natural, that's all. Much easier to read.
    Ah, yes. I was wrong. It should be B natural. Thanks!

  11. #10

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    By the way, look at the symbols above the box where you write your posts. Pass your mouse over them. The 6th from right to left in the middle line will say 'Insert image'.

    You can use it to put an image into your post, either from the net or from your computer.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    By the way, look at the symbols above the box where you write your posts. Pass your mouse over them. The 6th from right to left in the middle line will say 'Insert image'.

    You can use it to put an image into your post, either from the net or from your computer.
    Writing music.-img_7643-jpg

    This is the chord that i made for this song.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post

    Would be curious to know how you conceive of the rhythm section and harmony.
    The melody is mostly scale derived which makes each chromatic exception more noticeable.

    Bar 16-17 Cb Db Bb

    2nd ending Bar 17 is interesting: Bb Ab Ab Gb| Ab followed by the return of G natural in Bar 19.
    Check out my last reply, mate. Cheers!

  14. #13

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    E voila! You better discuss that with Bako. I'd just like to hear it :-)

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    E voila! You better discuss that with Bako. I'd just like to hear it :-)
    This is the song. I am the one using ES335 on the right.



    Thanks mate!

  16. #15

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    My pleasure. That's very nice, she's got an attractive voice - and you're playing very professionally too. Good stuff!

    Where are you all from?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    My pleasure. That's very nice, she's got an attractive voice - and you're playing very professionally too. Good stuff!

    Where are you all from?
    THANK YOU!

    We're from Indonesia. A country from south east Asia.

  18. #17

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    I thought so. Giovanni is Italian but you look like something else :-)

    That big sign is Dutch, of course, and the Dutch were in Indonesia at one time.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I thought so. Giovanni is Italian but you look like something else :-)

    That big sign is Dutch, of course, and the Dutch were in Indonesia at one time.
    Yes. I was named after an Italian Prime Minister, as far as i know. Me myself looked like an average Asian guy. Hahaha.

    So, are you a Dutch?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giovanni Goria View Post
    Yes. I was named after an Italian Prime Minister, as far as i know. Me myself looked like an average Asian guy. Hahaha.

    So, are you a Dutch?
    No, I'm just an average English guy

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    No, I'm just an average English guy
    Nice to know you. Thanks for all your help!

  22. #21

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    After listnening I would probably just write it all in 2/4 or rather 4/4 (making 1 bar of 2 from your sheet) with the mark 'swing feel' or something like that (straight 8th = triplet 8th

    Then the tied 8ths..
    if you make 4/4 you can also make it straight quaters and eighths too...
    if you don't....I would not use ties...
    at least I do not see it is really necessary in cotext of this song ...

    The singer would make quite free phrasing anyway

    Ah, yes. I was wrong. It should be B natural. Thanks!
    As per 'easier to read' (what ragman1 said about...)

    For me Cb would be actually easier to read than natural B in that context.. (and definitely more correct)
    i think it depends on reader...
    when the context is functional harmony I feel more comfortable reading it in reference to key...
    When it's notated enharmonically it's like telling me there's some idea behind it (key change or whatever)

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    After listnening I would probably just write it all in 2/4 or rather 4/4 (making 1 bar of 2 from your sheet) with the mark 'swing feel' or something like that (straight 8th = triplet 8th

    Then the tied 8ths..
    if you make 4/4 you can also make it straight quaters and eighths too...
    if you don't....I would not use ties...
    at least I do not see it is really necessary in cotext of this song ...

    The singer would make quite free phrasing anyway



    As per 'easier to read' (what ragman1 said about...)

    For me Cb would be actually easier to read than natural B in that context.. (and definitely more correct)
    i think it depends on reader...
    when the context is functional harmony I feel more comfortable reading it in reference to key...
    When it's notated enharmonically it's like telling me there's some idea behind it (key change or whatever)
    Woah, you're definitely right. I'll probably write new sheet with 4/4, alongside the ones with 6/8 that i'm currently working on, just to see which one will be easier to read for my bandmates.

    As for Cb or B natural, i'm still confused by this. I really don't know the "rules" of writing musical notation, and i'm a bit clueless when it comes to music theory, so, your opinion would definitely help me in that matter. I'll look forward to meet a friend of mine who's a musical student in my town, to discuss about writing this piece correctly.

    Thank you for your reply. I appreciate it a lot!

  24. #23

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    I think Jonah has a point there. When I was listening to it, it did seem as though it was going 1...2... quite slowly. But at the same time it felt like a 3 rhythm so I left it. And it did seem as though you were notating triplets - but 6/8 music can look like that.

    As for the Cb, I prefer to keep things as simple to read as possible. Technically Cb may be correct in a descending line but in the key of Eb it seems an unnecessary complication.

    I don't know. Ask other people too!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    As for the Cb, I prefer to keep things as simple to read as possible. Technically Cb may be correct in a descending line but in the key of Eb it seems an unnecessary complication.

    I don't know. Ask other people too!
    I just come from my regular classical background....

    The key is Eb... the chord seems to be Ab minor... it's ab -cb -eb...
    We lower VI step of Eb major...

    For me it's quite simple...

    On the contrary if I see B in such a context it's kind of sign to me that some modulation is happening ... it's instinctive...) even if I get immediately that it's not... I still mentally see it as Cb
    So it can be even inconvenience if you're used to read key-wise

    notation is informative about this too.

    When music is more or less key free... then it's ok of course
    I understand though that in modern notation everything is possible...
    In modern music this notation just does not work often any more so it just makes no difference how we write.

  26. #25

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    I know, but if I see a Cb I do a double-take whereas I see that B and my fingers are right there :-)


    By the way, the chord before the Abm7, according to the chart, is a BM7. Should the Abm7 be G#m7 (like a 1-vi)? Or would you write the BM7 as CbM7????

    don't want to cause trouble, just asking!

  27. #26

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    By the way, the chord before the Abm7, according to the chart, is a BM7. Should the Abm7 be G#m7 (like a one-six)? Or would you write the BM7 as CbM7????
    It's the different place that we talk about...

    The charts seem to be a bit awkward.. not that it's wrong in some places sounds like extensions are not necessary... or the harmony could be a bit corrected... (I remember Eb over G-7 and D natural over C7b9? Or maybe I am wrong?) and in some cases extensions are produced from melody voicings... somewhere it looks that the chord comes up following bass move...
    I also don't dig these parallel minor11's at the beginning... how do these 11's work in real playing? What are the real voicings?

    Giovanni, did you write the chart completely yourself or you just put in some voices and the programm generated chord names?

    Nevertheless...

    Ab- comes in 3 contexts...
    1) this paralell movement at the beginning
    2) Ab-7 /Db7 turnaround (backdoor or whtever you call it - and here it's minor IV)
    3) Between two Bmaj7 chords

    Discalimer: Cb in the melody shows up only in 1) and 3)

    So ragman1 asked how would I notate it?)))
    - melody definitely as Cb
    - Chords...
    You see here this Bmaj7 seems to come from voice leading... first it sounds like inversion of Ab-7 ..
    then then this Bmaj7 goes to B7 (followed by root Ebmaj7) which I personally would not do in the context... a matter of taste maybe.
    On the other hand ot brings in some feel of unexpected move... because first you hear it like cadence in Bb... Cm7 Bmaj7 Bb triad..
    But then this Bb7 is dominant to Eb... and there is enough power of Eb key yet to keep it strong.

    In the charts I would probably leave it as Bmaj7 for convinience of reference...


    chord symbols is much more conventional to me than traditional notation...
    to me the chord symbols inform often on just possible pitches in the harmony... voicing...
    so I am used to convert it anyhow in my mind... to certain reasonable degree of course...)))

    Besidas things like Cm7 Bmaj Bb that i wrote above... they are kind of accepted as a norm in that written form. So why would I make it different?



    But in the score if I had to write it out I would definitely put it as Cb (and D# as Eb, and A# as Bb...) because in the score it would show the logics of voicings and resolutions... it would be strange to have A# and then Bb in the next bar here..

    By the way I see no problem in contadiction of score and chord symbols here... I find it separate tools. It's like notating horns in Bb or A... it does not contradict violins in C in the same score...

    But seeing Bnat melody where it is obviously Ab-7 minor in harmony (real harmony no only symbols) seems strange to me..

  28. #27

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    Thanks for the effort. I would leave it too.

    I think, with respect to Giovanni, the chart is complicated but, you know, he's not used to it. When you hear the song it sounds a lot simpler!

    I had an idea and put a 2/4 simple line into a notation program I have. Looks like this:

    Writing music.-untitled-jpg

    It did that automatically. But that doesn't make it right, of course.

  29. #28

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    It did that automatically. But that doesn't make it right, of course.
    I see..

    well if I saw that score you made I would probably think there's something like G chord maybe... I don't know

    As I said that's coming from classical... the habit to take notation as something more informative than just information of pitch

  30. #29

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    Okay, Cb then, I don't mind :-)