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Originally Posted by fasstrack
But having used Sibelius for years, hitting its various shortcomings (like triplet editing), and reading/seeing/following the Dorico presentations, I think the development team did its best to improve a lot over it and make it simpler and easier to use. Now if one must buy Cubase to get Dorico ... it's another story.
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09-19-2016 03:21 AM
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I learned how to write out a lead sheet by hand, make parts and all that from my friend's dad when I was growing up. Mr Koehler was a bandleader in the 50s and he showed me how to line out your sheet and some tricks music copyists use to make a nice sheet.
I can write out by hand something that is very readable in less time than it takes to try and operate a computer based music copy program.
So if you are talking about parts for just one tune, I'll do that by hand because its faster and I get exactly what I want with no effing around. Think of me as the "John Henry" of music copying.
the sad thing is that music copying is actually a musical skill, but people just don't write things out by hand anymore.
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller
Hear hear (here?)...
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Hear, hear is correct. It bugs me, for some reason, that many people insist on writing it as "here, here". Reading seems to be a lost art, and often people rely on what they mistakenly hear. It's "hear, hear", as in I hear what he said, and so should others. I have no idea what "here, here" is supposed to mean.
Just another rant from the grammar police. Carry on with your day.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
But, in the words of that shrewd commentator on human behavior, Billy Crystal, 'Don't get me started'...
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Here here is my buddy accordionist's drawing of a beautiful handwritten score. Stole it from his FB:
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I can write out by hand something that is very readable in less time than it takes to try and operate a computer based music copy program.
I prefer hand-written... I like to see a blank sheet of paper, I like to fill it in, I like to see ready - real one with real letters or notes, the one I can drop in the box and find ina year, throuw in the trash can or use to wrap my breakfast)
but being professional it is almost impossible today. Nobody wants to see hand-written parts any more.
I work with texts a lot too and I had the same issue... I hate typing texts on computer on the same reason... I prefer writing by hand..
but when you have to deal with hundreds of pages re-typing is so time-consumimg and sometimes it is alos unreadable that I finally found a compromise...
I use old type-writer and when the text is more or less ready I scan it and use software to edit it. (Or to be honest... I edit the manuscript, and my wife or elder daughter scan it and edit on computer)))
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you know, I didn't realize this, but a lot of schools don't even teach cursive handwriting anymore. When I was in elementary school, they taught us to write in cursive because people wrote things out by hand. apparently, that is not being taught universally anymore.
the thing is...writing something by hand and seeing what you wrote there on the paper are strong memory triggers.
typing it up and seeing on a flatscreen for some reason doesn't make those same memory connections, which means that it may be actually harder for the young guys to pick up some of these musical skills. It sort of like cheating on an exercise and not getting the full benefit of the workout.
That's what I mean about music copying being a musical skill and learning it helps. A rising tide floats all boats, so the more you know the better off you are. you want to really remember something? you want to know if you really know something? .....write it out on staff paper by hand and try not to make a pig's breakfast out of it
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
see what I mean?
when you take the time to write things out, the finished product is so much better than a stale printout
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you know, I didn't realize this, but a lot of schools don't even teach cursive handwriting anymore
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typing it up and seeing on a flatscreen for some reason doesn't make those same memory connections, which means that it may be actually harder for the young guys to pick up some of these musical skills. It sort of like cheating on an exercise and not getting the full benefit of the workout.
Another thing I do not like about typing on computers that you cannot amend or correct, you can only delete and re-type... and when you delete you feel like it never existed...
And then it effects writing as it is... if you can so easily erase it any moment, copy and paste, change the order of words... then what is really the value of all this?
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That's what I mean about music copying being a musical skill and learning it helps. A rising tide floats all boats, so the more you know the better off you are. you want to really remember something? you want to know if you really know something? .....write it out on staff paper by hand and try not to make a pig's breakfast out of it
I often had to stay after classes and copied a new piece by hand from my teacher's book.
When I had some experience I could memorize a piece before even playing it... and also whlie copying it I got it very personal, like I composed it myself.
The modern accessability of everything requires a lot of discipline.
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I really like writing music by hand, I find it very satisfying, for some reason.
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I'd love to have a midi transducer for my guitar so I could have some software transcribe whatever I play, but that is still too expensive for what its worth to me.
I found an old notebook earlier this summer from back when I was living at home. My friend's dad, Mr Koehler, had all these great old fake books down in his basement, but he'd never let us leave the house with them. We couldn't take them to the library and make copies like that. But he'd let us stay up all night hand copying tunes, so I'd spend the night and me and Grant would be up all night playing cards and copying tunes
anyway I found one of those old notebooks and my bass player remarked at how easy to read all the tunes were, even close to 40 years later.
since most of my copy work got handed out to the boys in the horn section or turned in as a semester project back in school, it was pretty cool to come across an old notebook full for tunes
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Similar sorts of discussions exist for the digitization of any media. The tech introduces shortcuts that can create handicaps if one simply relies on them and does not understand the manual process and all the "whys". At the same time, the tech introduces shortcuts that can make the process faster, easier, and arguably better.
An example can be found with how math education has progressed over the years. With the introduction of increasingly advanced calculators, the basic memorization and repetitive practice approach to learning has shifted toward an understanding of concepts and how to use tech as a tool to do the grunt work. This has allowed us to move deeper into the subject earlier in instruction and cover debatable more interesting ground instead of trudging through foundational material. Granted, the foundation is always necessary and the balance is in finding how to "use" the tech and not "exploit" it.
To save the time transposing for Bb and Eb and bass clef instruments in order to create a unison line? Priceless. But to rely entirely on the software to the point of being lost should you have to do it on the fly somewhere, clearly not desirable.
I'd say my own preference is to handwrite early drafts, for things like jotting ideas or writing a melody. Software for reproduction and distribution and archiving.
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Originally Posted by pants
there is this thing called "mental discipline". I didn't memorize multiplication tables because there weren't calculators. There were. And there were slide rules before that. You memorized the multiplication tables so that you could do the necessary calculations in your head to solve real problems without having to check with your stupid iPhone.
That idea you are putting out that technology somehow makes it so that kids don't need to know anything is the most destructive idea in modern education.
the fact is that young people don't understand any concepts either. Just talk to somebody in your office under the age of 40 about a simple application of integral calculus and you'll see what I mean.
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Originally Posted by Nate Miller
My math analogy might not have been the best choice as there are a number of other loaded issues tagging along with the point I was trying to make, which is simply that tech, used responsibly and as a supplement rather than a replacement, can help to streamline some of the tedious components of tasks like transcribing up and down keys and whatnot. Certainly the composer still needs to have that knowledge and doing it all by hand all the time increases mastery by providing hours of practice. But in the real world, the time saved can often outweigh the benefits of more practice on something you already know how to do.
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Originally Posted by pants
fair enough. And just in the interest of "fair disclosure" I don't believe that technology helps people learn anything. I believe that it makes your brain lazy and then when you really need to figure something out, all you can think of is to look something up on your phone.
besides, those "tedious components of tasks" are my favorite part of working a problem. Not having a head for those sorts of details is exactly what makes the millenials such a PITA to have to work with. Couple no mental discipline with their not being able to take criticism and throw in their penchant for being little crybabies and what's not to like, you know what I mean?
so if that is the sort of educated adult technology produces, then we need to get back to pencils, chalk and erasers.
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I try not to use navigator even driving in another country... (of course within reasonable limits)...
I just feel stupid following these instructions... besides it's much more fun to find the way using real map or signs...
I also noticed that if you use navigator in a new town you actually do not get to know it... you do not uderstand where is what and how you got to the destination.
Last time I was in Finnland I saw in many public places regular doors with knobs (not slide doors) that open itself as you approach... i tried to ask: why do you need a door with a knob if you do not open it yourself?
they could not answer...
it looks like they are so comfortable that they do not know already what to improve... of course it's a good thing for disabled people, of moms with a baby carriage but they put in the places where you can hardly meet one.
Or you can make a button for them but let those who can do it on their own - do it...
It almost hit me in the face... they said: you know we do not walk so fast here...
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I've started a different thread as educational tech is something I'm interested in more deeply and am curious to talk about it more. However, I don't want to get too far off subject here.
Educational(?) Technology
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t
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You need a knob on any door. You don't always need to use it, but you have to allow for those times when the electricity goes out, etc. Without electricity, the technology being discussed in this thread doesn't work.
GPS is wonderful technology. It was a godsend for offshore pilots, and boat captains, when it was turned on. Out there, navigation, especially in low visibility or in the clouds, is rather difficult without it. I've done my fair share of navigation using a wet compass and a clock, and GPS is much better. It's also helpful driving in a strange city with heavy traffic, where it isn't at all safe to be looking at a map instead of watching the crazy drivers all around you. Having the voice directions is very helpful, and much safer. I almost always have Google Maps running on my phone on trips, even if I know the route very well, just for the traffic information. Many times I've saved a lot of time by knowing about accidents and other road closures before I was trapped in stopped traffic. GPS and other technology are tools, nothing more, but IMO it's foolish to ignore available tools just because you're afraid of them, or think you're too good to need them. Tools are meant to be used. One needs to be able to get by without them if necessary, and lots of things can substitute for a hammer in a pinch, but it's better to use the tool best suited for the job.Last edited by sgosnell; 09-20-2016 at 06:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Guys, is it ok we are communicating here by typing on a computer that sends text electronically? How about we do handwritten letters and become penpals? These damn millenials dont know anything but internet, but we will show them! Lets be real old school, what ya say?
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Originally Posted by Jonah
'I'd rather do it myself, mom, than flip a switch'
---Chuck Wayne...
Chief Xian aTunde Adjuah (Christian Scott)
Today, 12:32 AM in The Players