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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
    Not only did George Jones not write "He Stopped Loving Her Today," he hated the song, refused to learn it, and sang it the melody of Kris Kristofferson's "Help Me Make It Through the Night." It took almost 18 months to get a complete recording done, as this was one of the worst points in Jones' abuse of alcohol and drugs.

    The real authors of "He Stopped Loving Her Today" are Bobby Braddock and Curly Putnam, two veteran country songwriters. The team also wrote "D-I-V-O-R-C-E," while Putnam wrote "The Green, Green Grass of Home," a number one hit for Tom Jones in 1966.

    I've noticed that lyrics site frequently incorrectly name the singer of a song as the author. I wouldn't trust any of their attributions without checking a more reliable source.

    I think you're right about lyrics (online) often being attributed to the singer. (This attribution may be of the 'as sung by' type rather than the 'written by' type, as most people don't care who wrote the song.) I hadn't noticed that the lyrics I copied were credited to George. Never thought he actually wrote them, though I never looked into who did.
    Whatever he thought of the song, it's a great one.
    Patsy Cline didn't want to sing "Crazy" (by Willie Nelson) at first. But she did a fantastic version of it. Really, the definitive one.
    Buck Owens didn't want to record "Act Naturally" for the longest but finally gave in to the relentless pestering of guitarist Don Rich. It was a huge hit for him. (The writer of that, Johnny Russell, was in England at a bar when Mick Jagger came in to pick up something. Jagger saw Russell's cap--which mentioned Nashville--and asked if he was from there. Russell told him he worked there, wrote songs. Mick asked if there were any he might know. Johnny said "Act Naturally" and Mick sang it through on the spot. For a songwriter, it may not get any better than that.)

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I
    Buck Owens didn't want to record "Act Naturally" for the longest but finally gave in to the relentless pestering of guitarist Don Rich. It was a huge hit for him. (The writer of that, Johnny Russell, was in England at a bar when Mick Jagger came in to pick up something. Jagger saw Russell's cap--which mentioned Nashville--and asked if he was from there. Russell told him he worked there, wrote songs. Mick asked if there were any he might know. Johnny said "Act Naturally" and Mick sang it through on the spot. For a songwriter, it may not get any better than that.)

    Was this before or after the Beatles recorded it?!

  4. #78

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    OK. So much for great lyrics. What about trying to write them yourself. Here's one that I think we were getting close on, but never really finished. Greg sent me this idea which I rewrote about 40%. Then I made this little trio track and sent it to Michelle to sing, and she rewrote a few lines that made a big improvement.

    Listen to the worktape... (play loud, the level is kind of low)

    FIRST NIGHT LAST NIGHT
    © 2008 (Greg Swartzentruber/Ken Bennett/Michelle Young)

    Purple ribbons run through an orange sky
    As dawn breaks over you and I
    It was hard to risk the days when we were friends, nothing more
    But we never kissed like the one before...

    Our First Night Last Night
    Loving you feels so right
    And I'll never see sunrise in the same old light
    Since our First Night Last Night

    Embers light the fire in your dark eyes
    As love takes on a new disguise
    We whispered gently in the night as our new passion burned
    So glad after all this time ‘cause we know we earned...

    Our First Night Last Night
    Loving you feels so right
    And I'll never see your eyes in the same old light
    Since our First Night Last Night



    When I think of all the precious things that we could have lost
    I’m glad that we took the chance when it finally was...

    Our First Night Last Night
    Loving you feels so right
    And I'll never be lonely for my heart's delight
    Since our First Night Last Night
    Last edited by kenbennett; 08-11-2015 at 08:50 PM.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77
    Was this before or after the Beatles recorded it?!
    Buck recorded the song in 1963. I'm not sure when The Beatles recorded it. The encounter with Mick was much later, the '70s I think.

  6. #80

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    The Beatles recorded and released "Act Naturally" in 1965. It was the "B" side to "Yesterday." In the US, it appeared on the Yesterday and Today album in 1966.

  7. #81

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    So.. other than Ken do you guys actually write lyrics?

    Lyric writing suggestions:

    • Enjoy that we can have rhyming dictionaries on our phones
    • Write down everything all the time. You can sort it later.
    • Don't suck
      • Choose good influences (my influences: Joni Mitchell, Dylan, Beatles, Leonard Cohen, Sting.. yours will certainly be different)
      • Get input from people you trust (if you hear 'corny, trite, maudlin, overwrought, dumb, et al.. believe and move on to the next major revision)

    • On the other hand, don't make it so hard. Sometimes leaving a few less than perfect lines is OK if it means you can finish the danged thing and perform it.
    • Rewrite. Don't get too attached to your creative genius.
    • Use convenient tools. I like to use Powerpoint. Many use Word. Still, try buying a good pen, not just some POS from Office Max, and get some high quality writing paper. Go sit in a coffee shop and see what happens.
    Last edited by Spook410; 08-12-2015 at 03:12 AM.

  8. #82
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    So.. other than Ken do you guys actually write lyrics?
    I do. This one's about someone who, despite appearances, is an s.o.b.


    PS Here's another (plus a poor video of a duo performance):

    SINCERITY
    ©Mike McKoy


    I’d take a different tack
    Change vessel in midstream
    I’d search the stars with all my heart to find my fondest dream
    I’d conquer every mountain if I could conquer me
    Perhaps I’ll give sincerity a try


    I’d capture every rainbow
    And lasso down the moon
    No longer tilt at windmills on wistful afternoons
    I’d gladly pay the piper if I could call the tune
    Perhaps I’ll give sincerity a try


    It seems I sit in vain upon the shelf
    Could it be I’m waiting for myself?


    I’d farm this fallow field
    And harvest more than weeds
    Rekindle flat-lined passion with revived intensity
    A thriving bloom from perfect seed, whose blossom would be me
    Perhaps I’ll give sincerity
    Yes, I’ll try sincerity
    I’m gonna give sincerity a try
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-12-2015 at 03:47 AM. Reason: addition

  9. #83

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    Mike, I enjoyed your "poor" video. That song works and the performance is fine.

  10. #84
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    Mike, I enjoyed your "poor" video. That song works and the performance is fine.
    Very kind of you to say so - thanks!

    I haven't performed any for an English-speaking audience, and I'm in the process of expanding the whole work into a play for translation into at least three languages - taking my time and enjoying the challenge of writing dialogue (while getting my guitar chops together.)

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    So.. other than Ken do you guys actually write lyrics?

    Lyric writing suggestions:

    • Enjoy that we can have rhyming dictionaries on our phones
    • Write down everything all the time. You can sort it later.
    • Don't suck
      • Choose good influences (my influences: Joni Mitchell, Dylan, Beatles, Leonard Cohen, Sting.. yours will certainly be different)
      • Get input from people you trust (if you hear 'corny, trite, maudlin, overwrought, dumb, et al.. believe and move on to the next major revision)

    • On the other hand, don't make it so hard. Sometimes leaving a few less than perfect lines is OK if it means you can finish the danged thing and perform it.
    • Rewrite. Don't get too attached to your creative genius.
    • Use convenient tools. I like to use Powerpoint. Many use Word. Still, try buying a good pen, not just some POS from Office Max, and get some high quality writing paper. Go sit in a coffee shop and see what happens.
    One problem we had writing "First Night Last Night" was attachment to rules.

    The setting is the morning after their first night together, so the time frame is that one moment. This couple is consumed with their immediate experience. They're not thinking about the future, and the only past they're thinking about is the last few hours. Still we argued over whether verbs should be in past tense or present tense. Of course the singer is in the present, but every thought leads to what happened last night. So I tried to start each verse in present tense and let the 2nd half fall back to past tense to lead up to the title.

    Greg, who wrote the first draft, intentionally broke the 'you and me' vs. 'you and I' rule because it sounded good and he couldn't think of anything better. At first I objected, but he convinced me. Then when Michelle got the song, she being the perfectionist, had to change it.

    So it took a lot of rewriting to get this song as good as it is.

    Other times people send me lyrics that are perfect in the sense that I can set them to music with only a couple of minor changes to make the melody consistent from verse to verse. Those changes are so minor that the lyricist usually doesn't even notice.
    Last edited by kenbennett; 08-12-2015 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #86

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    i'm very glad cole porter has been discussed in this thread

    if you can write:


    The world has gone mad today
    And good's bad today,
    And black's white today,
    And day's night today,
    And that gent today
    You gave a cent today
    Once had several chateaux.

    which is deep and important but in such a way that its depth and importance is almost entirely obscured by its charm and lightness

    if you can write lines like that (with the confidence to just miss out the grammatically necessary 'to whom') and only use them once in the whole song - you have got it going on.

    and for me its totally crucial that i'm improvising on tunes with words. this is so because the words set the melodic rhythm of the piece (without which you don't know how to phrase) - but also because they give the pieces we play their feel. try playing 'you don't know what love is' with the feel of 'i got you under my skin' (both love songs). the feel determines which tempos work well. but i also think that there's some deep magic that goes on when you know the words - you should have them floating through your mind as you play (if not actually singing them to yourself). i know my two pre-school boys pick up the tunes they know through the words.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    So.. other than Ken do you guys actually write lyrics?
    I do. Here's a low-fi video of me singing my song "Screenplay" in my room. (My friend Vicky, whom I hadn't seen in a long time, said she missed my voice and wanted to hear me talk and warble, and as is often the case, that charm worked on me. ;o)

    Guitar's not plugged in.



  14. #88

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    Dylan..the young folksinger Dylan..the folk/electric Dylan--and beyond..not at all the same person-glad about that..

    cole porter .. trip to the moon on gossamer wings...yes it was just one of those things...using one of the most creative lyrics against a standard time tested cliché ..

    its not paint by numbers..(don't tell sting) its from experience-personal inner or outside --"..I read the news today..oh boy"

    I wrote songs that were performed on stage by a small group..some were performed for a stage production..others lived in some living rooms with wine and friends..

    where do the words/ideas come from..for me--a mixture of my life and the people places and things in it and what other people told me about theirs..they came while I rode a bus to work..walked in a park..woke up in the early morning hours..discovering the reality of love..truth..loyalty..loneliness..being selfless and having no regrets..and the realization that nothing is free..the mystery of life..the real size of the universe..the abstract god..the evil that no devil could imagine...but "man" can..something that can make you laugh or cry and you cant explain why..

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I do. Here's a low-fi video of me singing my song "Screenplay" in my room. (My friend Vicky, whom I hadn't seen in a long time, said she missed my voice and wanted to hear me talk and warble, and as is often the case, that charm worked on me. ;o)

    Guitar's not plugged in.


    Where's the words? Writers like reading as much or more than listening.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbennett
    Where's the words? Writers like reading as much or more than listening.
    Thanks for asking.
    I'll have to rustle 'em up. (They're not on the hard drive of this laptop.) They were included in an e-book of my lyrics ("These Days My Momma Is A Damn Good-Lookin' Man" but I pulled that over a disagreement with the publisher. I'll get around to putting it back out myself, which is what I should have done in the first place.)

  17. #91

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    Here's a Johnny Mercer lyric I like, "Ac-cent-tchu-ate the Positive". I like the verse, included this recording by Mercer himself.



    Gather 'round me, everybody
    Gather 'round me while I'm preachin'
    Feel a sermon comin' on me
    The topic will be sin and that's what I'm ag'in'
    If you wanna hear my story
    The settle back and just sit tight
    While I start reviewin'
    The attitude of doin' right



    You've got to accentuate the positive
    Eliminate the negative
    And latch on to the affirmative
    Don't mess with Mister In-Between

    You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
    Bring gloom down to the minimum
    Have faith or pandemonium's
    Liable to walk upon the scene

    To illustrate my last remark
    Jonah in the whale, Noah in the ark
    What did they do just when everything looked so dark?

    (Man, they said "We'd better accentuate the positive")
    ("Eliminate the negative")
    ("And latch on to the affirmative")
    Don't mess with Mister In-Between (No!)
    Don't mess with Mister In-Between

    (Ya got to spread joy up to the maximum)
    (Bring gloom down to the minimum)
    (Have faith or pandemonium's)
    (Liable to walk upon the scene)

    You got to ac (yes, yes) -cent-tchu-ate the positive
    Eliminate (yes, yes) the negative
    And latch (yes, yes) on to the affirmative
    Don't mess with Mister In-Between
    No, don't mess with Mister In-Between
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 08-13-2015 at 09:29 AM. Reason: spelling

  18. #92

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    Here's an unfinished something of mine, at this point just ideas...

    Black Coffee
    @ Frank Pratte

    (Verse)
    I feel the warmth, a sweet caress
    Her eyes a misty steam
    I sip, a warm wet kiss
    That awakes my morning

    (Chorus)
    Black Coffee...
    Give me dark, rich black coffee
    Just a sip is what I seek
    Her warm lips is what I need
    She's my dark, rich black coffee

    (alternative chorus)
    Black Coffee...
    From dreams of her I awake
    To feel the heat on my fingertips
    The forbidden fruit of my desire
    A rich dark taste to light my day
    Last edited by fep; 08-13-2015 at 02:16 PM.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Very kind of you to say so - thanks!

    I haven't performed any for an English-speaking audience, and I'm in the process of expanding the whole work into a play for translation into at least three languages - taking my time and enjoying the challenge of writing dialogue (while getting my guitar chops together.)
    Me too, I really enjoyed your tunes. Great command of language.

    What is your first language? Being bilingual, how do you like writing in English?

  20. #94
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    "These Days My Momma Is A Damn Good-Lookin' Man"
    Love it - I hear Herb Ellis in that.

  21. #95
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Here's an unfinished something of mine, at this point just ideas...

    Black Coffee
    @ Frank Pratte

    (Verse)
    I feel the warmth, a sweet caress
    Her eyes a misty steam
    I sip, a warm wet kiss
    That awakes my morning

    (Chorus)
    Black Coffee...
    Give me dark, rich black coffee
    Just a sip is what I seek
    Her warm lips is what I need
    She's my dark, rich black coffee

    (alternative chorus)
    Black Coffee...
    From dreams of her I awake
    To feel the heat on my fingertips
    The forbidden fruit of my desire
    A rich dark taste to light my day
    Nice - I hear a bolero...

  22. #96
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    What is your first language?
    I think of English as my first language (because I have better speed and control in my responses).

  23. #97

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    On a lark, I sent an email to Pat Pattison (-the songwriter / lyricist / professor that fep mentioned above.) I asked Pat about 'awful' and 'troughful' in "Lush Life." Not that his response would be Gospel but I should like to hear it in any case. If I hear from him, I'll pass it along here.

  24. #98

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    The site was down for 30 hours due to copyright infringement. For more details, see the following thread.

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/annou...tml#post558140

    My first thought when I heard this was, "O, God, was it because of the song lyrics we posted?"

    Matt said that was not it and that it was unlikely lyrics would get 'dinged' because so many sites post them. Yay!

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    O
    When you gonna let me read your screenplay?
    The lyric, rhythm, and melody work well together on that line. That's a great hook.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    The lyric, rhythm, and melody work well together on that line. That's a great hook.
    Thanks, Frank.
    My younger brother----who has heard a lot of my stuff over the years---thinks that is one of my most effective hooks.

    One thing we haven't talked about here is the distinction between 1) writing lyrics for a composed melody and 2) coming up with words and music at the same time. I tend to do the latter and am sometimes surprised later to see how the lyrics look typed up naked on a page. (1 and 2 do not exhaust the possible options.)

    I do keep a notepad handy and jot down titles, lines, ideas. I guess others here do too.