The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Posts 26 to 37 of 37
  1. #26

    User Info Menu

    So, JonR hit the nail on the head IMO.
    I would like to add (possibly repeat) some thoughts on this topic. As a theory teacher and guitar teacher I have been in this situation before, many times.

    Theory will not help this student in any way. At least not harmonic theory (theory of keys and chords) which is what is commonly thought of as "Theory"

    If theory is to be used at all, a discussion of form will most likely be of the most use and will also keep the student's interest. This goes back to what Jon was saying about learning WHOLE SONGS, something which can be surprisingly tough to get a student to do. In fact, I find it more impressive when a student learns a WHOLE SONG than when they learn the modes. I believe the latter to be completely useless to a songwriter BTW.

    As far as key goes... dare I say it.... also relatively unimportant to a songwriter, that's what capos are for. ; )

    Things that I have found helpfull in songwriting lessons...

    Identifying common "sections" (verse, chorus, bridge, interlude, solo, intro, breakdown, etc..) and their characteristics.

    Writing and singing super simple songs WITH the student during the lesson to help take the pressure off.

    Spending most of the lesson listening to paul simon... only kind of kidding.

    But above all else... form (which sections are being used?, how long are they?, how do often they happen?, etc.)

    When I have a student who IS well versed in theory who wants to learn about songwriting, the protocol is the same... "Learn as many WHOLE SONGS as you can and forget what harmonic theory is suggesting, just don't forget that super awesome part of that Bowie tune you learned last week and how it felt" dig?

    Without making this an overly long, "two beers in" rant. I also believe that technical proficiency on either piano or guitar (or a partner who is) is pretty essential to good songwriting.
    Last edited by timscarey; 08-22-2013 at 11:52 PM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

    User Info Menu

    If he's a song writer have him write songs. He doesn't need to know theory until he realizes he's limited without it. He doesn't need to know Dorian or mixolydian to write a melody. He can put some chords together and sing or hum a melody. Don't take all the pleasure of creating music away from him by demanding something he doesn't feel he needs. If the song sounds great tell him so. I hope you didn't half way validate him by saying something like "it sounds nice, but you don't know your theory so it sounds not as nice as it should . . " Creativity is a sensitive territory. Try to help him find some alternate chords. See whether he likes those and if he asks how you came
    up with them. Or try modulating the bridge or some harmony parts. Let him know that theory helps. Spice things up by changing the voicings or inversions. Move the bass around. See if his eyes get big. But if he wants to be a songwriter don't bog him down with jazz theory. You'll lose him for life.

    My two cents.

  4. #28

    User Info Menu

    There's another side to this coin. When I first started writing songs as a young person, I did so very simply. And then, when I started to learn theory, I would complicate things were it was entirely unnecessary, sometimes making changes in the name of "sophistication" when the tune would have been better left as it was, simple.

    I agree with Henry's opinion on this.
    Last edited by paynow; 08-24-2013 at 11:00 AM. Reason: Correct a typo

  5. #29

    User Info Menu

    Thanks paynow. And it really helps if you are a songwriter yourself. And what kind of songs is he writing? Jazz type tunes? Americana type tunes? Alternate rock/pop or R&B favored? There's a whole huge subject of songwriting. I actually know some good, and very successful songwriters who wouldn't know a mixolydian from a hammer. But they can play changes and create tunes, modulate to any key at the drop of a hat. A couple of these guys are doing some shows on Broadway, I believe. Hits, placed songs on albums for other artists.

    Getting too complex too early might be the worst thing for a budding songwriter. There's a world of differences between being a songwriter and a jazz musician. The two CAN coexist, but not very easily at first.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 08-24-2013 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #30

    User Info Menu

    Here's my POV

    Before I got into jazz, I was ignorant to theory. I barely knew what a major scale was, no idea what a key was, or anything. I used to play well though. Had bands, wrote music, and it was pretty good. Even at my level of musicality now, I listen back to things I used to write, and they're actually pretty good!

    I got into jazz, and that actually stuck me in a rut in terms of writing. At first, I was learning jazz as part of school, since i was in school for music, but I only intended to use the jazz stuff as a way of writing better rock/metal stuff. So I did not focus on jazz, and I was still writing some really cool stuff. Riffs, melodies, "chord progressions" (not really progressions in the jazz sense, but it had a lot of nice stuff going on).

    After I started taking jazz seriously is when my writing got bad, I couldn't stop thinking in jazz terms, ii-V's, everything I wrote came out as really really cheesy, everything had to resolve, stay in the changes, and whatnot.

    I feel like your student might be experiencing some of this. As you said, he writes some cool stuff as it is, and he might be using jazz as a way to learn a technique to help his fingerpicking stuff, or he's afraid jazz might turn him away from what he likes now. Nothing wrong with that.

    You as a teacher, have to find your own ways of dealing with this, whether it be supporting what he does now, or actually motivating him to learn jazz or theory. Some people are just not open to playing jazz. I can't blame them. I used to hate big band stuff, and I used to (and still) hate Kenny G, and that's what most people are exposed to.

    Anyways, I know you're a jazz guy, and it's weird for you to think this way, but MANY kids learn to play with no theory, and they're actually pretty decent writers, composers, or instrumentalists. However, it makes it hard to collaborate. Since he doesn't understand the way you would come up with something (see the chord he has, look at the scale or arpeggio and figure out a melody) and you can't seem to teach him those things, it's pretty difficult. Again, it's not impossible to write a song without the words, and incorporate the words later. I used to do this.

    The best thing you can do is to forget about teaching him traditional theory. Here's what I would do:
    Jam with him, have him teach you one of his songs, the chord progressions. While you're learning his song, it's your job to figure out what the chords he is playing are. You do the analysis. Then just inconspicuously say "oh, that's a [name of chord] you got there." Small things like this will get stuck in his head. When you learn the song, take turns improvising on it. When he's improvising, it's your job to make the chords sound interesting. You can figure out inversions, melodic ways to play the chords, etc. Help his ear come up with something he could play and be like "wow! that sounded cool."
    When you're improvising and he's playing chords, it's your job to do something theoretic in your playing. Take the chords and play the right scales in a solo, make up little melodies for him. Record all this and look back onto it, or give him the recording, I'm sure it will help him get something out of it and add to the tune.
    As I said, little subtle things will get stuck in his head more. Say, if he's playing a tune with a lot of open string chords, ask him to transpose it to another key, but don't say it that way. The conversation would more or less go:
    you: that sounds cool, but I bet it would sound better up a few frets
    him: yeah but I need the open strings to play the chords
    you: no you don't, you can actually play different forms of the chords up here like this [and you play some really nice, rich voicing]
    and just have him try it. It'll take a couple of minutes to help him transpose all the chords he has to up the 3 or so frets you'll probably have him move, but after you're all done just say "guess what, you just transposed a whole song, that would take some people much longer to do, and that's if they have the sheets on them"

    Also, when learning tunes, use staff paper to write out the chords, say it's for yourself, but have him keep a copy.

    Small things will ease him into theory, and if he's really interested, he'll ask you.
    Remember that the job of the teacher is to teach, but a teacher can't teach if the student doesn't ask.

  7. #31

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Conman
    I am not getting paid. I am working with an instructor to get my hand back in shape who also instructs this kid I am talking about and asked If I would help him start to write a song. no money involved.
    Sounds like the other instructor is passing the buck onto you. How little is your time worth to waste it on a student that doesn't want to learn? We use to do this all the time whenever we got difficult/stubborn students with monied-up parents. Take their money, pass him off to some other schlub who doesn't value their own time, and teach the students we want to teach.

  8. #32

    User Info Menu

    Your student (and you) should check out the songwriting course on cousera. It's put on by the Berkeley school of music and it's free. It's a great course. Google coursera.

    This is course teaches songwriting without dipping into much music theory other than song structure.

  9. #33

    User Info Menu

    Maybe a place to start would be to sketch out A few familiar tunes such as Eleanor Rigby...Tuesday Afternoon...Rhythy, of the Rain...give him 5 or 6 popular chord progressions of well known tunes... Let him experiment and slowly work in some theory and guide him that way... We are all still learning...and when you don't know anything..it's hard to verbalized what you do not know..patience as a teacher and understanding goes a long ay

  10. #34

    User Info Menu

    I'm completely confused about what this thread is about. What does this guy actually want you to do?

    Am I getting this right? He comes in, plays something for you that he wrote. You ask him if he knows what he's playing. He says, "No". You ask if he wants to. He says, "No".

    I don't get it. Why is he even talking to you. He should just go write more stuff if he's happy with what he's doing.

  11. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Your student (and you) should check out the songwriting course on cousera. It's put on by the Berkeley school of music and it's free. It's a great course. Google coursera.

    This is course teaches songwriting without dipping into much music theory other than song structure.
    That looks cool. Thanks. https://www.coursera.org/course/songwriting

  12. #36

    User Info Menu

    If he's willing to listen at all, how about using the similarities in the shapes of chords a fifth apart (e.g. C and G), just to demonstrate options he has for choosing chords? He may even ask why those chords sound good together, which sets you up to explain the circle of fifths in C and chord movement/function.. just an idea

  13. #37

    User Info Menu

    Well I may have this wrong but I thought he wanted to learn something about writing songs.