Mel Bay's Rhythm Chord System used by?

[DanielleOM]

Is the Mel Bay Rhythm Chord system, formerly published as the Orchestral Chord system, used by many in practice? For the those not familiar with the book it primarily shows chords and inversions using string 6, 4, 3, and 2. (Strings 5 and 1 muted)

Who are the players that play using those full chords with all of the inversions as presented in the book?

I ask as I see a lot of newer educational videos suggesting what I would call smaller voicings. Don't recall seeing any recent videos suggesting on play the 3rd, 5th, or b7 on the 6th string.

[mr. beaumont]

This is an old style, I'm guessing, meant specifically for rhythm guitar playing.

You could certainly play the whole chord...though over time guitarists like Freddie Green distilled the essence of the chord down to just 1 or 2 strings, with the 4th string being most important.

However, he'd still often fret fuller chords (usually 3 notes, 6th 4th and 3rd string) but concentrate on hitting the 4th only, or 4th and 3rd

As for voicings, root on bottom, 3rd on bottom, 5th on bottom most common.

If you're interested in this type of playing, join me for the Summer of Rhythm Guitar!

If you're looking for general modern comping ideas, this book is probably not it.

[Kirk Garrett]

Jimmy Bruno just posted a video on those 6432 chords which he calls “Mel Bay chords.”

[mr. beaumont]

That Bruno video is gold for someone starting out...

I too learned the relationships between the most common chord types this way...string set 6432, then 5432, 4321.

It was later I learned what I was playing were called "drop 2 and 3" voicings.

[Kirk Garrett]

That Bruno video is gold for someone starting out...

I too learned the relationships between the most common chord types this way...string set 6432, then 5432, 4321.

It was later I learned what I was playing were called "drop 2 and 3" voicings.

He definitely doesn’t go for that terminology.

Do you happen to use those chords a lot for your excellent solo guitar arrangements?

[mr. beaumont]

He definitely doesn’t go for that terminology.

Do you happen to use those chords a lot for your excellent solo guitar arrangements?

All the time!

[AllanAllen]

I ask as I see a lot of newer educational videos suggesting what I would call smaller voicings. Don't recall seeing any recent videos suggesting on play the 3rd, 5th, or b7 on the 6th string.

I think it helps to learn the full chord and the inversions, and then play less notes. I made my own chart and learned them by rote memorization.

I think the summer rhythm guitar thread will help you. You can always go into Bill Evans on guitar comping in the fall.

[DanielleOM]

I am actually very familiar with all of the chords presented in that Mel Bay system.

Back in the late 60s, with the aid of a teacher, I literally went through the whole book and all of the exercises in the book. A lot of that information actually became more useful to me in mid 2000s when my interest turned to playing standards primarily from the 30s and 40s. In my own playing I do use a lot of those chords. However I often see references suggesting alternative approaches.

[RLetson]

As much as I respect Bruno, I nearly stopped when he claimed that shell voicings aren't really chords and that those who promote them "never played a jazz gig in their life." I first learned shell voicings from Ted Conner, who supported his family playing solo gigs and whose teaching regimen was built on 3-note voicings and the most efficient ways of fingering them--not unlike the approach I later found in Jim Ferguson's All Blues for Jazz Guitar. But then, Jimmy's a grump, and maybe he's just annoyed at calling a voicing or a fingering a chord. And I'm just a jumped-up folkie who plays swing rhythm, so what do I know.

[AllanAllen]

As much as I respect Bruno, I nearly stopped when he claimed that shell voicings aren't really chords and that those who promote them "never played a jazz gig in their life." I first learned shell voicings from Ted Connor, who supported his family playing solo gigs and whose teaching regimen was built on 3-note voicings and the most efficient ways of fingering them--not unlike the approach I later found in Jim Ferguson's All Blues for Jazz Guitar. But then, Jimmy's a grump, and maybe he's just annoyed at calling a voicing or a fingering a chord. And I'm just a jumped-up folkie who plays swing rhythm, so what do I know.

I took it more that labeling things drop 2 and shell is academic and it's not useful to wade through on the bandstand. Personally, I don't see the harm learning the labels now that they are widely used.

You have to remember, Jimmy Bruno is like a carpenter, he learned how to play on the job and it was all one of these and one of those, and get it right you knumbskull! It's all in his No Nonsense Jazz Guitar DVD. I'm sure as a teacher he also saw tons of guys who couldn't play a blues asking about drop 2, shells and modes. His underlying message always seems to be "stop making this hard, here are the single note fingerings, here are 3 grips that'll get you through any tune. Now play something."

[Kirk Garrett]

All the time!

Is the reason the Mickey Baker book doesn’t go into these chords because he’s only thinking of the guitar as an ensemble instrument?

[rpjazzguitar]

My first teacher, back in the 60's was a big band player from the 30s to the 50s. He called them "muted string chords". A and B strings were muted in these voicings. After cowboy chords they were the first chords I learned.

I still use them in big band playing, although not constantly.

I noticed that Jimmy Bruno plays 3x34xx for G7. Isn't that a shell voicing?

My teacher taught 3x343x.

Avoiding simultaneous notes on the low E and A strings helps avoid a muddy sound in a big band style comp, to my ear. The low note could interfere with the bassist, but the big band guys played those chords with a deft touch -- not as much low end as you might expect and tending towards staccato.

[AllanAllen]

Is the reason the Mickey Baker book doesn’t go into these chords because he’s only thinking of the guitar as an ensemble instrument?

The solo guitar stuff is in Mikey Baker's second book.

[mr. beaumont]

Is the reason the Mickey Baker book doesn’t go into these chords because he’s only thinking of the guitar as an ensemble instrument?

Baker, from what I remember, I haven't looked at that book in a long time, was another no-nonsense plug and play approach. He gives a bunch of riffs, vamps, real world situations...

With learning the drop 2's and 3's, it's more systematic but not necessarily practical right away. You have to do some of the leg work yourself...it's not a method, more of a reference. And then if you learn all of the drop 2 and 3 dominants, you're going to need to figure out how to add tensions and extensions, and there's a lot of other chords you need to know if you're going to get any good voice leading. Baker kind of builds some of that in without calling it anything...the infamous D7alt chord with no D in it that blows everybody's mind...

For chord melody (which I don't really recommend starting with, I did, and it screwed me up a bit, maybe that's for another thread on another day) you're obviously going to be playing more root on the bottom chords...and then figuring out how to put any melody note on top...that part is actually helpful with "real" comping, as when you comp, your top note becomes a counter lead line-- whether you like it or not

I agree with Allan that learning full chords is a great starting point...just because you're fretting 4-5 notes doesn't mean you need to play them.

As for the Rhythm Guitar thing, again, I think the stuff I'll be posting will really only be helpful if somebody is interested in that particular style...and again, I'm not teaching anything...it's more of a challenge to myself (and anybody who wants to come along for the ride) to play rhythm every day and to record frequently to basically force myself to keep going/growing.

[Kirk Garrett]

The solo guitar stuff is in Mikey Baker's second book.

Does he use the “drop 2” / Mel Bay approach?

[RLetson]

I found it interesting that while Bruno scoffs at some kinds of terminology, he has no problem with naming the notes and chords he demonstrates, or categorizing chords by string-set. That kind of organizing/naming is every bit as academic-formal as understanding what a drop-2 or first inversion is--and while it's not all that useful in mid-gig, it's pretty useful in explanatory or teaching environments, once the terminological system is established. I mean, would the "Nashville number" system be too academic? It's just a way of talking about musical structures.

Myself, I learned the nomenclature and some of the chord theory behind the fingerings after Ted Conner had led the class through his practice sequences (on the 6-4-3 set, FWIW). He did point out some very basic chord-spelling facts: that you don't need all six strings (he was addressing mostly folk players), that the three-note voicings were root-third-seventh, that the third and seventh were the "heart of the chord" and responsible for the feeling of harmonic movement, and that the fifth was not needed to make a sequence sound right. I eventually found the same explanations in most swing-rhythm tutorials.

Knowing that and why do have a connection to knowing how, but those kinds of knowing don't necessarily occur in that order. My impression is that Ted started with fingers and ears and let the "understanding" follow as needed--one of his favorite lines was "See--I can teach your granny how to play guitar." (And he did give the Allman brothers some lessons--and he wanted his students to read notation.)

I may have posted this link before, but I never pass up a chance to memorialize one of my best teachers:

Your browser is not supported | news-journalonline.com

(Yes it is--just click on the link.)

[AllanAllen]

Does he use the “drop 2” / Mel Bay approach?

Not exclusively. I thought you were asking a different question.

[Kirk Garrett]

Not exclusively. I thought you were asking a different question.

Well, the first book provides sets of chords that have lots of color to them, but not necessarily the specific color or extensions a player would always choose in every situation. It’s a starting point, as Mr. Beaumont indicates.

But perhaps the Mel Bay approach is a better starting point for a guitarist who wishes to play solo or only with a vocalist, and not with a bunch of other musicians.

At any rate, I will finish the first Micky Baker book and then decide what direction to take.

[AllanAllen]

I may have posted this link before, but I never pass up a chance to memorialize one of my best teachers:

Your browser is not supported | news-journalonline.com

(Yes it is--just click on the link.)

"If somebody wanted to buy me a drink, I'd say 'I don't drink but I got two children in college so I'd welcome five dollars (laughs).' Another thing I tried to tell all my students when they went out to be professionals was 'Leave the boss' girlfriend alone.' "

I love this guy.

[AllanAllen]

Well, the first book provides sets of chords that have lots of color to them, but not necessarily the specific color or extensions a player would always choose in every situation. It’s a starting point, as Mr. Beaumont indicates.

But perhaps the Mel Bay approach is a better starting point for a guitarist who wishes to play solo or only with a vocalist, and not with a bunch of other musicians.

At any rate, I will finish the first Micky Baker book and then decide what direction to take.

The Mickey Baker book made me the hack I am today, lol.

[MarkRhodes]

Jimmy Bruno just posted a video on those 6432 chords which he calls “Mel Bay chords.”

I remember learning those and submitting a video to Jimmy back when he had the Workshop (JBGW)
It's good to know those voicings even if you don't use them all the time. (They're teaching you how to build and alter chords.)
The 4321 voicings are great for chord melody and comping. The 6432 are great for people playing solo (because you need some bottom) and I do that, so they're "everyday" voicings for me.

That lesson would be worth $10.99 that he's asking for it.

And yeah, those are the same voicings as in that Mel Bay book. That Mel Bay was well thought out. No duplicate notes, solid and balanced voicings. Also, they're good "grips" (-when you know them, you can move them around quickly, which is crucial for rhythm guitar.)

[MarkRhodes]

Is the Mel Bay Rhythm Chord system, formerly published as the Orchestral Chord system, used by many in practice? For the those not familiar with the book it primarily shows chords and inversions using string 6, 4, 3, and 2. (Strings 5 and 1 muted)

Who are the players that play using those full chords with all of the inversions as presented in the book?

I ask as I see a lot of newer educational videos suggesting what I would call smaller voicings. Don't recall seeing any recent videos suggesting on play the 3rd, 5th, or b7 on the 6th string.

The people saying play smaller voicings are assuming you are playing with a bass player and maybe even a piano player.
In that context, you want to "go small" more often than not.
But it's good to know those fuller voicings because they teach you where the (other) chord tones are in relation to the bass (lowest) note.

[DanielleOM]

In practice I have been using those full Mel Bay chords for quite a few years. I use my ear while singing the melody to find the inversion I like. I was playing duo for quite a while with a bass player. She would occasionally ask me to reconsider a voicing that I was using.

I avoid using a chord voicing where the top note is 1/2 step away from the melody note.

One thing I like to do is pick a chord inversion sequence so the lowest note being played ascends or descends for quite a few chords in sequence.

[AllanAllen]

One thing I like to do is pick a chord inversion sequence so the lowest note being played ascends or descends for quite a few chords in sequence.

Is it still called voice leading if it's the bass voice? This is my favorite type of chord movement.

[L50EF15]

I don’t have this Mel Bay book—yet. As Jeff will verify, Steve DeRosa has recommended it several times elsewhere.

But I have worked through the Mel Bay Tenor Banjo Method. Having done so, I can see that a lot of jazz guitar chords are variations on tenor banjo practice. Remember, the tenor is tuned in fifths, so you automatically get a wide voicing for most chords. And, being a four string instrument (and that the A string can be shrill if you’re not careful) jazz banjoists reduce chords all the time. Double stops and things guitarists would recognize as shell voicings are common. And the moving “tenor line” goes back to at least Johnny St. Cyr.

I thought I was reading too much into this idea, but then I read an essay on the Freddie Green site arguing that Freddie essentially imported his banjo voicings and techniques to the guitar, evolving over time to his famous “one note chord”/tenor line approach—which, again, was long established banjo practice.

Bottom line: There are only so many chord fingering patterns one can use on a fretboard, any fretboard, be it mandolin, banjo, or guitar. Since many of the Big Band guitarists came from playing banjo (including Mel Bay himself), seeing those patterns adapted from one instrument to the other makes sense.

And now to order that book…