Inversions

[jazzpazz]

Hey. On piano inversions are like the bread and butter of jazz. It's so common that when not using any inversions it's referred to as block chords, which are rare.

eWhen I see guitar players comp or chord melody they seem to use their chords in root position. And not often their inversions. Im curious as to why this is? Maybe its not needed, as the chords are often builds on E and A strings, making them not jump too much?

[pamosmusic]

Hey. On piano inversions are like the bread and butter of jazz. It's so common that when not using any inversions it's referred to as block chords, which are rare.

eWhen I see guitar players comp or chord melody they seem to use their chords in root position. And not often their inversions. Im curious as to why this is? Maybe its not needed, as the chords are often builds on E and A strings, making them not jump too much?

This is definitely not the case. Guitar players invert all the time. The chords will not often be close-voicings because they’d be unplayable, but guitarists play inverted and rootless chords more often than root position chords by a very very wide margin.

Exception being rhythm guitar where they are responsible for, or it is stylistically appropriate, to play the bass as well. Then primarily shells on the lowest four strings.

[mr. beaumont]

Hey. On piano inversions are like the bread and butter of jazz. It's so common that when not using any inversions it's referred to as block chords, which are rare.

eWhen I see guitar players comp or chord melody they seem to use their chords in root position. And not often their inversions. Im curious as to why this is? Maybe its not needed, as the chords are often builds on E and A strings, making them not jump too much?

You're watching lousy players?

[mr. beaumont]

Exception being rhythm guitar where they are responsible for, or it is stylistically appropriate, to play the bass as well. Then primarily shells on the lowest four strings.

When playing rhythm I'll play a lot of notes that aren't roots...keeping the string set (643, emphasis on the 4th) in most important

[pamosmusic]

When playing rhythm I'll play a lot of notes that aren't roots...keeping the string set (643, emphasis on the 4th) in most important

Good point. I rarely jump the root up for the 137 and play 537 instead.

[pauln]

Good point. I rarely jump the root up for the 137 and play 537 instead.

Mr. B is referring to string sets; aren't you referring to chord tones?

[pamosmusic]

Mr. B is referring to string sets; aren't you referring to chord tones?

Both. Shell voicings are most commonly played on the E D and G strings, or the A D and G. R73, and R37 respectively. When you get to a voicing with the root on the A string, you can swap out the root for the fifth, which generally lands on the E string, making it 5 3 7 and using the same string set as 1 7 3

8 x 8 9 x x for C7

8 x 7 9 x x for Fmaj7, fifth in the bass, no root.

[Bobby Timmons]

You were inverted.

[AllanAllen]

Both. Shell voicings are most commonly played on the E D and G strings, or the A D and G. R73, and R37 respectively. When you get to a voicing with the root on the A string, you can swap out the root for the fifth, which generally lands on the E string, making it 5 3 7 and using the same string set as 1 7 3

8 x 8 9 x x for C7

8 x 7 9 x x for Fmaj7, fifth in the bass, no root.

Just like this chart I made. When you cut out a note from chords, a lot of the grips become synonymous.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, rhythm guitar is really it's own thing...I'm always surprised when people don't get that (nobody in this thread, but when I started a thread about rhythm guitar last year people were talking about comping in general and I was like "no...RHYTHM guitar" )

Back to root position voicings, I find when I'm comping, even when I play a root position voicing, I don't often actually play the root on the bottom.

[AllanAllen]

Yeah, rhythm guitar is really it's own thing...I'm always surprised when people don't get that (nobody in this thread, but when I started a thread about rhythm guitar last year people were talking about comping in general and I was like "no...RHYTHM guitar" )

Back to root position voicings, I find when I'm comping, even when I play a root position voicing, I don't often actually play the root.

I don't think many people here play rhythm guitar. I didn't get the difference until I sat in with that big band and there was no room with 12 horns, bass and a piano all playing at the same time. That was so much fun....

[mr. beaumont]

I don't think many people here play rhythm guitar. I didn't get the difference until I sat in with that big band and there was no room with 12 horns, bass and a piano all playing at the same time. That was so much fun....

It's a lost art for sure...I'm determined to bring it back for smaller group settings...like this:

I gotta get up to one of your sessions once I'm out of school and just sit in the back with an acoustic and give you guys some hard swinging rhythm to blow on.

[AllanAllen]

I wish that album was on Spotify

[mr. beaumont]

I wish that album was on Spotify

It was on YouTube music but now I can't seem to find it.

Something that good should not be so obscure.

[AllanAllen]

I just ordered a copy off discogs for $0.99 +shipping, fun little shopping spree. Also got Red Norvo Trio, Benny Goodman Trio, and Teddy Wilson Trio records.

[mr. beaumont]

I just ordered a copy off discogs for $0.99 +shipping, fun little shopping spree. Also got Red Norvo Trio, Benny Goodman Trio, and Teddy Wilson Trio records.

Nice, I have it on CD somewhere...All of my CD's are in storage bins right now...can't part with them yet...

[AllanAllen]

My wifes car still has a CD player so I still use mine. Well, one of them at least... Danny Gatton's The Humbler is the only one I play.

[Kirk Garrett]

Nice, I have it on CD somewhere...All of my CD's are in storage bins right now...can't part with them yet...

There’s still music that’s not available on Spotify that you can get on CDs. So do be judicious about which ones you choose to part with.

[mr. beaumont]

There’s still music that’s not available on Spotify that you can get on CDs. So do be judicious about which ones you choose to part with.

Yeah, I ditched Spotify about 2 years ago, but still use YouTube music...I've encountered very little that isn't there, but I'm not taking chances.

Still have a bunch of CD's in my car. Been blasting Nat King Cole and the Beastie Boys' "Check Your Head" this week.

[rpjazzguitar]

I wouldn't mind resurrecting that rhythm guitar thread.

I'm playing big band regularly and I'm not sure when to stick to Freddie G. and when to branch out.

Freddie played with Basie and Walter Page. Steady rhythm, swing and sparse piano. And, the arrangements were all consistent with that style.

Often, Freddie G. seems like the best thing to play, but I often start to think, there must be a way for the guitar to contribute more without making mud.

It's not difficult to branch out when there is no piano. It's liberating. But, then you have to read the piano chart and cover essential lines that only the piano chart contains. Like the Basie ending -- not so good with silence instead of that piano lick.

But, it's a hard thing to discuss without charts and recordings and so forth.

[mr. beaumont]

I wouldn't mind resurrecting that rhythm guitar thread.

I'm playing big band regularly and I'm not sure when to stick to Freddie G. and when to branch out.

Freddie played with Basie and Walter Page. Steady rhythm, swing and sparse piano. And, the arrangements were all consistent with that style.

Often, Freddie G. seems like the best thing to play, but I often start to think, there must be a way for the guitar to contribute more without making mud.

It's not difficult to branch out when there is no piano. It's liberating. But, then you have to read the piano chart and cover essential lines that only the piano chart contains. Like the Basie ending -- not so good with silence instead of that piano lick.

But, it's a hard thing to discuss without charts and recordings and so forth.

I think the style dictates everything. The Freddie style is an old way of playing..I love it, but of course it's not what you're going to hear in a modern style big band...

Like even though that's an old tune, the arrangement tells me that this is not the time for Freddie Green style...

But I also doubt many of us are playing in big band situations like the above...

[jameslovestal]

Hey. On piano inversions are like the bread and butter of jazz. It's so common that when not using any inversions it's referred to as block chords, which are rare.

eWhen I see guitar players comp or chord melody they seem to use their chords in root position. And not often their inversions. Im curious as to why this is? Maybe its not needed, as the chords are often builds on E and A strings, making them not jump too much?

Are you only seeing intermediate level guitar players that are playing with just another intermediate level guitar players?

I ask this because for years I only used 6th and 5th string root position chord voicings and I only played with fellow guitar players that were at a similar level of experience. Since there was no one playing the bass, and only two rhythm centric instruments, these types of voicings worked. But when I started to play a duo with a piano player, or trio with two guitars and bass, I started using inversions, as well as comping (instead of just basic rhythm).

[rpjazzguitar]

I think the style dictates everything. The Freddie style is an old way of playing..I love it, but of course it's not what you're going to hear in a modern style big band...

Like even though that's an old tune, the arrangement tells me that this is not the time for Freddie Green style...

But I also doubt many of us are playing in big band situations like the above...

Nothing quite like that in the charts I'm seeing. I wonder if the arranger wrote in backbeats or something, or if the chart would just have slashes.

[mr. beaumont]

Are you only seeing intermediate level guitar players that are playing with just another intermediate level guitar players?

I ask this because for years I only used 6th and 5th string root position chord voicings and I only played with fellow guitar players that were at a similar level of experience. Since there was no one playing the bass, and only two rhythm centric instruments, these types of voicings worked. But when I started to play a duo with a piano player, or trio with two guitars and bass, I started using inversions, as well as comping (instead of just basic rhythm).

Very true, context is important...if there's no bass player, I'm playing a lot more roots...

[Mick-7]

Just like this chart I made. When you cut out a note from chords, a lot of the grips become synonymous.

Hmm, when I played with my college big band, the bass player gave me dirty looks when I played voicings on the bottom strings like those, felt I was invading his territory and muddying his lines (which was true at times). And then Joe Williams, the Count Basie vocalist, told me that in a big band, the sound of the guitar should be "felt rather than heard," so I had to find a middle ground between traditional and modern big band styles. In fact, our repertoire demanded that anyway, for example, there were tunes that called for wah-wah pedal rhythm comping.