Passing chord C --> Em7

[alez]

On the third measure of Stars Fell on Alabama in the key of C there's C and on the fourth measure there's Em7. I've found one fake book that doesn't connect those, the New Orleans Jam Book:



Then I've found two fake books that connect them. Sher Music's New Real Book 3 has a Dm7:



Hal Leonard's Real Book 3 has an F:



I think D7 is a good choice, but I'm just a confused student.

I would like to know what you'd be inclined to use and why

Thanks!

[Tal_175]

Dmin and Fmaj are diatonic passing chords. D7 is a backdoor, sort of like a secondary dominant. They are all good theoretical options as long as they sound good with the melody. There are even more options. But the goal to me is not to decide on "one" passing chord approach per situation but to work on variety in my harmonic vocabulary.

[djg]

On the third measure of Stars Fell on Alabama in the key of C there's C and on the fourth measure there's Em7. I've found one fake book that doesn't connect those, the New Orleans Jam Book
Then I've found two fake books that connect them. Sher Music's New Real Book 3 has a Dm7:

it does not matter. even if connecting chords are not notated, many will play/comp/improvise on them. jazz is full of hidden changes. works the other way around as well. even if connecting chords are notated, players might not choose to play them, or play different chords. one might play Em A7 Dm G7. another guy might play Em Ebm Dm. Or Em Ebdim Dm etc. all this can and will happen simultaneously.

so you're somewhat asking the wrong question and too early in the process. when you learn a tune you want to check out what your favourite players do and not what is notated on a piece of paper by some unknown person. or what the internet thinks. train your own ears.

can you hear what they are doing on this take? (hint: they play very basic changes):

slightly different chords, still super basic

then you can get feedback here whether you heard the changes right. ideally you use your fakebooks as cheat sheets *after* checking the various recordings and deciding on what you hear as the right chords.

[Mick-7]

alez, The New Orleans Jam chart you posted has the "vanilla" chord changes and the other two charts have common chord substitutions.

For example, in bar 4 you have a descending melody, E-B-Bb-A (and bassline), that the alternate (synonym) or substitute chords compliment.

Em7 (IIIm) is a rootless CM9 (IM) chord, FM7 (IVM) and Dm7 (IIm) are subdominant chords (Dm9 = rootless FM7), etc.

If you learn chord synonyms (like those I mentioned) and common chord substitutions, it will all make sense. There are probably dozens of threads here on the subject so no point in repeating it here - try search terms like "chord substitutions."

[rpjazzguitar]

Which I would use depends on the situation.

Solo guitar -- the smoothest voice leading I can get while playing melody and a simple bassline. Probably more connecting chords rather than fewer.

In a band with a piano and a horn. Say the horn has the melody. I'd start sparse and vanilla until I can hear the pianist's approach. Even if the pianist is deferring to the guitar, I'd play simply enough, at least at first, for the pianist to easily hear what I'm doing. For the solos I have to work with the pianist's chords and rhythms and not make mud.

If the guitar is the only comping instrument the world opens up. But you can't do the same thing every chorus. So then it's all about movement. Too much for one post. Reg's videos on youtube demonstrate the concepts. reg529.

[Liarspoker]

Em7 is a good sub for Cmaj7. They don't need to be connected to each other with another chord.

The Cmaj7 / Em7 - Ebdim / Dm7 / G7 is a very popular progression found in many standards.

Edit. You are talking about bars 3-4 right? But then you mention D7 in bar 2?

[ragman1]

Alez, as the saying goes, the person who never made a mistake never made anything. So needing to be perfectly safe and get the 'absolutely correct' version of a tune probably doesn't exist. You have to do your research, which you have already done a little, then live with it, try out different ways of doing it, and see where you are. The first one you decide on may not be the version you end up with once you get to know the tune well.

There are not only the different versions in fake books but the versions on YouTube. Google some transcriptions which show the chords by different players. Google some backing tracks and see what they say too. When you've got a variety of options then try them out. Record your own backing track (just put the chords down), play the melody over them, and see which you like. See what attracts you. See what you gravitate to naturally.

You have to live with the tune a bit and let it sink in before you decide on a version to use. But sooner or later you'll know what to do. Of course, it's easier to ask other people to tell you what to do but they aren't you. You have to find out for yourself and you will if you do the work.

I've had a look myself and I can tell you the most popular version is the Cannonball Adderley version. There's a transcription of it. He does it in G. That one has no connecting chords in bar 3, it goes straight from G to Bm. In C, that's just from C to Em.

Personally, I prefer a connecting chord. The most popular one seems to be FM7 or FM#11 and that works nicely. As for the D7, why not? It's attractive. Actually, this is a very easy tune to put subs into and you could try things of your own out. Good luck with it.

[alez]

All,

Thank you so much for finding time to put together some words for me. It's extremely useful. And you blow my mind every time

Dmin and Fmaj are diatonic passing chords. D7 is a backdoor, sort of like a secondary dominant. They are all good theoretical options as long as they sound good with the melody. There are even more options.

I'm not familiar with using diatonic chords for this. I see how both Dmin7 and Fmaj7 create a bass line that works well. I wonder if that's all a diatonic work needs to work well for this purpose.

I'm more familiar with the use of a dominant that takes you to the destination chord in any of the usual ways, hence the D7 suggestion that you called a backdoor. I look at that one from the Barry Harris perspective of dim symmetry which I came across a few years ago thanks to you guys.

I can think of many ways to go to Em7 in the key of C using different dominant sounding chords (although your remark wrt the melody applies of course). Fm6, Bb7, B7, D#dim7, F7, D7... I'm sure you know a few more.

it does not matter. even if connecting chords are not notated, many will play/comp/improvise on them. jazz is full of hidden changes. works the other way around as well. even if connecting chords are notated, players might not choose to play them, or play different chords. one might play Em A7 Dm G7. another guy might play Em Ebm Dm. Or Em Ebdim Dm etc. all this can and will happen simultaneously.

I saw a video of Barry Harris (again) explaining exactly this. I think he called it playing "movements". I really like that, and that's why I always prefer simple charts with only the chords that constitute the tune. This New Orleans Jam Book is great for that.

alez, The New Orleans Jam chart you posted has the "vanilla" chord changes and the other two charts have common chord substitutions.

For example, in bar 4 you have a descending melody, E-B-Bb-A (and bassline), that the alternate (synonym) or substitute chords compliment.

Em7 (IIIm) is a rootless CM9 (IM) chord, FM7 (IVM) and Dm7 (IIm) are subdominant chords (Dm9 = rootless FM7), etc.

If you learn chord synonyms (like those I mentioned) and common chord substitutions, it will all make sense. There are probably dozens of threads here on the subject so no point in repeating it here - try search terms like "chord substitutions."

I know a few of these equivalences and I'm familiar with the general idea but totally appreciate the reminder and description of chords.

For older jazz tunes, the Sher Music New Real Book series makes it less straightforward to tell apart what's part of the tune and what's a harmonic embellishment or arrangement. On the plus side, the added complexity has good quality.

Which I would use depends on the situation.

Solo guitar -- the smoothest voice leading I can get while playing melody and a simple bassline. Probably more connecting chords rather than fewer.

In a band with a piano and a horn. Say the horn has the melody. I'd start sparse and vanilla until I can hear the pianist's approach. Even if the pianist is deferring to the guitar, I'd play simply enough, at least at first, for the pianist to easily hear what I'm doing. For the solos I have to work with the pianist's chords and rhythms and not make mud.

If the guitar is the only comping instrument the world opens up. But you can't do the same thing every chorus. So then it's all about movement. Too much for one post. Reg's videos on youtube demonstrate the concepts. reg529.

Wow! Thanks for pointing out all this, it's great and it totally makes a point that good comping is not that much to do with whatever chart.

Em7 is a good sub for Cmaj7. They don't need to be connected to each other with another chord.

Just like on the New Orleans Jam Book, of course. I've seen this sort of the other way around more often. A descending diatonic third on the bass, like on C to Am7.

The Cmaj7 / Em7 - Ebdim / Dm7 / G7 is a very popular progression found in many standards.

I had never come across it so far, but I've just played it a few times and I really like it.

Edit. You are talking about bars 3-4 right? But then you mention D7 in bar 2?

This is all about the C on measure 3 going to the Em7 on measure 4. I suggested connecting them with a D7 (no relation with the D7 on measure 2).

Alez, as the saying goes, the person who never made a mistake never made anything. So needing to be perfectly safe and get the 'absolutely correct' version of a tune probably doesn't exist. You have to do your research, which you have already done a little, then live with it, try out different ways of doing it, and see where you are. The first one you decide on may not be the version you end up with once you get to know the tune well.

Revisiting tunes after a few years of not playing them is great, actually, you play them so differently.

I've had a look myself and I can tell you the most popular version is the Cannonball Adderley version. There's a transcription of it. He does it in G. That one has no connecting chords in bar 3, it goes straight from G to Bm. In C, that's just from C to Em.

Personally, I prefer a connecting chord. The most popular one seems to be FM7 or FM#11 and that works nicely. As for the D7, why not? It's attractive. Actually, this is a very easy tune to put subs into and you could try things of your own out. Good luck with it.

Looking at all the awesome comments, I didn't explain well exactly what I was after when I opened this thread, but this comment gives me it.

Here's a quickie for you. I've put some usual-type subs in and used B7b13 (7x788x) as the connecting chord to the Em. I thought, as the melody had a D# in it, it might do. It's looks a bit fearsome all written out but it's quite easy to play. And it's all repetitions anyway. The melody's low so it doesn't obscure the backing.

The point is to show how one can play with these things if one wants to. If one thing doesn't work simply replace it...

CM7/A7b13 - D9/G7#5 - CM7/B7b13 - Em7/Eb7b5
Dm7/C#o - Dm7/G13 - E7#9/Eb7#9 - D7#9/G7#5

CM7/A7b13 - D9/G7#5 - CM7/B7b13 - Em7/Eb7b5
Dm7/C#o - Dm7/G13 - C6/Fm6 - Em7/A7b13

That sounds beautiful. Thanks. The B7 sounds perfectly natural. Can you spell the notes present? I'm not a guitar player and I don't understand 7x788x. I assumed the "7" would relate to the 6th string, which gives me a B, but the end "x" would then be an E. "B A A D# G E". Omitting the E does give you B7b13 I think.

so you're somewhat asking the wrong question and too early in the process. when you learn a tune you want to check out what your favourite players do and not what is notated on a piece of paper by some unknown person. or what the internet thinks. train your own ears.

can you hear what they are doing on this take? (hint: they play very basic changes):

slightly different chords, still super basic

then you can get feedback here whether you heard the changes right. ideally you use your fakebooks as cheat sheets *after* checking the various recordings and deciding on what you hear as the right chords.

There are not only the different versions in fake books but the versions on YouTube. Google some transcriptions which show the chords by different players. Google some backing tracks and see what they say too. When you've got a variety of options then try them out. Record your own backing track (just put the chords down), play the melody over them, and see which you like. See what attracts you. See what you gravitate to naturally.

You have to live with the tune a bit and let it sink in before you decide on a version to use. But sooner or later you'll know what to do. Of course, it's easier to ask other people to tell you what to do but they aren't you. You have to find out for yourself and you will if you do the work.

I always do this exactly when I want to learn a tune! This time I was just curious about a particular way to connect two chords which I have found on a random chart.

That said, given that you've been so kind as to look for these examples for me, I will listen carefully to the transition from C to Em7 on each and get back to you.

[Mick-7]

For older jazz tunes, the Sher Music New Real Book series makes it less straightforward to tell apart what's part of the tune and what's a harmonic embellishment or arrangement.

FYI, Ralph Patt's website is a good resource for the vanilla chord changes of many standards:

Ralph Patt's (Vanilla Book) website?

[ragman1]

The B7 sounds perfectly natural. Can you spell the notes present? I'm not a guitar player and I don't understand 7x788x. I assumed the "7" would relate to the 6th string, which gives me a B, but the end "x" would then be an E. "B A A D# G E". Omitting the E does give you B7b13 I think.

You should really know this way of spelling chords. It's used a great deal.

So: 7x788x.

• It reads left to right and each entry represents the strings, low to high.
• The numbers are the frets. So the first 7 means the 7th fret on the bottom E string.
• x means the string is not played. If you see an 0 it's played as an open string.
• If you're playing fingerstyle it's easier because you can sound the specific notes you want. If you're strumming then the x strings are muted by your other fingers. A bit of practice will show you, it's not as hard as it sounds.

7x788x looks like this when played.



I hope your mind's not completely blown, you're going to need it :-)

[alez]

FYI, Ralph Patt's website is a good resource for the vanilla chord changes of many standards:

Ralph Patt's (Vanilla Book) website?

Thanks I'm familiar with it, in fact I downloaded the whole website (including backing tracks and all, a complete local copy that you can navigate normally) a while ago, PM if you want it.

You should really know this way of spelling chords. It's used a great deal.

So: 7x788x.

• It reads left to right and each entry represents the strings, low to high.
• The numbers are the frets. So the first 7 means the 7th fret on the bottom E string.
• x means the string is not played. If you see an 0 it's played as an open string.
• If you're playing fingerstyle it's easier because you can sound the specific notes you want. If you're strumming then the x strings are muted by your other fingers. A bit of practice will show you, it's not as hard as it sounds.

7x788x looks like this when played.



I hope your mind's not completely blown, you're going to need it :-)

Thanks for the explanation It didn't occur to me that the "x" would be "no sound". I didn't know you could skip a string that's between two sounding ones (the 5th string in this case). I now see the B7b13.

[alez]

That said, given that you've been so kind as to look for these examples for me, I will listen carefully to the transition from C to Em7 on each and get back to you.

First recording, key of Bb, on measure 3 I hear Bb Bb/F, so no passing chord as on the New Orleans Jam Book chart.

Second recording, key of G, on measure 3 I hear G C, i.e. like on the Hal Leonard Real Book 3.

Is that correct?

[Christian Miller]

1) It’s an Em, not an Em7
2) You are going to find stylistic differences. This is an old tune. What changes you prefer will depend on your own style. As djg says it’s important to listen to versions of the tune and see what people use. This is also excellent ear training.

I notice a lot of older style changes jump around more. You get quite a few random minor chords like this is older version of tunes. Not everything had to be set up with a ii V or whatever…. Chords were simpler too back then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lawson-stone]

That Ebdim7 is a slippery chord. Eb is the tritone of A, and a measure with Em7 can include a movement to A7 or its sub, Eb minor or diminished. But the EbDim7 is also a direct sub for the D7 (D F# A C and Eb F# A C). So there really isn't much of a problem here. More important is what is the piano playing?

[alez]

1) It’s an Em, not an Em7
2) You are going to find stylistic differences. This is an old tune. What changes you prefer will depend on your own style. As djg says it’s important to listen to versions of the tune and see what people use. This is also excellent ear training.

I notice a lot of older style changes jump around more. You get quite a few random minor chords like this is older version of tunes. Not everything had to be set up with a ii V or whatever…. Chords were simpler too back then.

This is really interesting. I've never considered Em other than as part of a II-V like on the New Real Book. Much like I'm not familiar with diatonic chords such as Dm or F as passing chords, more as destinations preceded by some sort of dominant (and/or, in the case of Dm, as a Dm7 G7 II-V, of course).

That Ebdim7 is a slippery chord. Eb is the tritone of A, and a measure with Em7 can include a movement to A7 or its sub, Eb minor or diminished. But the EbDim7 is also a direct sub for the D7 (D F# A C and Eb F# A C). So there really isn't much of a problem here. More important is what is the piano playing?

And this remark ties well with above because if you use a A7 then you have the II-V, but if you use D#dim as per the original changes (which moves well onto the Dm7 that follows on measure 5), then the Em is no longer part of a II-V but an entity in itself like Christian points out.

Btw, the thread was originally about the previous measure to that, i.e. connecting C with Em.

Very interesting indeed seeing some diatonic chords in use without II-V everywhere.

[Christian Miller]

There’s a guy I know who’s an early jazz freak who shouts at you if you add notes to the wrong minor chord - on the gig. Minor triads are best unless it’s clearly a ii chord. I can’t take the abuse lol.

But the minor chord itself is a pretty cool sound. You can spend a lot of time mucking around with extra notes until you realise the sound you wanted all along was the plain old minor

As it happens there’s a story that that’s the way Bird liked it. Tbh minors are probably best left alone unless you want to make a thing of it and really lean into the m6/9 or min(maj7) sound (or play Manouche jazz and add a maj6 whether or not it sounds good, or you are one of those post-modal ne’er do wells who plays m7 regardless.)

Maybe, maybe on a modern gig, you can add a second. Maybe.

(I semi jest)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alez]

There’s a guy I know who’s an early jazz freak who shouts at you if you add notes to the wrong minor chord - on the gig. Minor triads are best unless it’s clearly a ii chord. I can’t take the abuse lol.

But the minor chord itself is a pretty cool sound. You can spend a lot of time mucking around with extra notes until you realise the sound you wanted all along was the plain old minor

As it happens there’s a story that that’s the way Bird liked it. Tbh minors are probably best left alone unless you want to make a thing of it and really lean into the m6/9 or min(maj7) sound (or play Manouche jazz and add a maj6 whether or not it sounds good, or you are one of those post-modal ne’er do wells who plays m7 regardless.)

Again this is really interesting.

These things depend on context so much, don't they? If all the other chords have 5 notes in them, alterations and so on, a plain old minor triad is likely to sound out of place no matter how you voice it. But if you stick to what's on the New Orleans Jam Book sheet I posted, it'd totally work. This book in particular uses, much like you described, plenty of diatonic chords without II-Vs and plenty of triads. I think I'm going to look up on there a few tunes I thought I knew and see how they were written originally.

Maybe, maybe on a modern gig, you can add a second. Maybe.

Can you explain this, please? Do you mean 1-2-b3-5 and you call it a second and not a ninth because there is no seventh?

[Christian Miller]

Again this is really interesting.

These things depend on context so much, don't they? If all the other chords have 5 notes in them, alterations and so on, a plain old minor triad is likely to sound out of place no matter how you voice it. But if you stick to what's on the New Orleans Jam Book sheet I posted, it'd totally work. This book in particular uses, much like you described, plenty of diatonic chords without II-Vs and plenty of triads. I think I'm going to look up on there a few tunes I thought I knew and see how they were written originally.



Can you explain this, please? Do you mean 1-2-b3-5 and you call it a second and not a ninth because there is no seventh?

Yeah like madd9 chord

Also position. I know jazz people often say 9th regardless of octave, but when it comes to chord voicings I think it’s good to be able to specify the position of the note. So I think of that note very much as an ‘add 2’ because it comes in a half step below the third. You get that clash

I also think the second is one of the few notes you can add to a minor chord without it turning into something different - a clashy m6, a James Bond-y m(maj7) or a dark m6/9 type sound. Maybe that’s why it’s commonly used by rock and pop musicians. (Pianists often add 2nds/9ths to chords as a matter of course)

Of course if you want a more jazzy jazz sound you can add a seventh as well - major or minor. For example Bill Evans uses Dm9(maj7) on beautiful love but on guitar it’s hard to get the same clustering. Sid Jacobs has some tricks though.

Bill Evans is really the model for that added note harmony I would say. Bop pianists tended to have simpler left hand chords. Usually shells. (You can build structures on shells though.) You don’t really want to be adding any notes on a New Orleans style gig (except maybe on dominants sometimes)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alez]

If you don't mind my asking, why are you so concerned with chords? Is it an academic interest? You play the trumpet, not the guitar, right? I can see the point about which chord version you could use for practice but otherwise I don't see an issue.

Or are you learning the guitar as well? I'm not clear.

A few different reasons, really.

• I love to learn these things, and get to the bottom of them, I just have a curious mind, you could call that academic interest I guess.
• I always try to do things correctly. I sometimes write lead sheets, I'd like them to have as few errors as poss and I'd like the chords chosen (vanilla or complex) to be consistent.
• Learning well how chords function in a tune is the only way I've finally been able to memorise tunes. I learn this from the book Hearin' the Changes thanks to the advice I got on this forum.
• The phrasing I'm working on relies heavily on the chords' voice leading (not necessarily chords actually being sounded by the rhythm section) and a good understanding of chords helps.
• I'm taking my very first steps on piano. The other day my teacher gave me the New Real Book music sheet for the tune we're discussing, not really to learn the tune, just to practice a few chords. I became curious about a few chords and that's why I checked other fake books...

By the way, are you Spanish? Your English is extraordinarily good!

Oh, wow, thanks!! I lived in the UK a few years (with exposure to the nice south of England accent in Surrey as well as the not so nice Scottish accent in Glasgow no less!) but I've spent most of my life in Spain where I'm from and where I live. I still find real time conversation very challenging, and have a few grey areas too, like prepositions and conditionals. I use English a lot. These days I'm actually applying for permanent job positions in the UK and Ireland. Last week I had a phone interview with an Irish woman. I had a really hard time trying to understand.

Where are you from?

[ragman1]

Scottish mother, English father. I was born in Scotland and then went all over the place because we were an army family. Eventually settled in Sussex. I don't have a Scottish accent :-)

Good luck with the job hunting.

[alez]

Understood, thanks. Again really interesting.

Yeah like madd9 chord

Also position. I know jazz people often say 9th regardless of octave, but when it comes to chord voicings I think it’s good to be able to specify the position of the note. So I think of that note very much as an ‘add 2’ because it comes in a half step below the third. You get that clash

I would've thought the interval had to sound harsh but I've been introduced to piano voicings that use it and it's actually pleasant. I've been using it on:

• V-of-major by adding a sixth and omitting the perfect fourth
• m7, m6, m7b5 just like you've described (added natural ninth)
• m7b5 by adding an 11th and omitting the minor third (this one puzzled me)

I also think the second is one of the few notes you can add to a minor chord without it turning into something different - a clashy m6, a James Bond-y m(maj7) or a dark m6/9 type sound. Maybe that’s why it’s commonly used by rock and pop musicians. (Pianists often add 2nds/9ths to chords as a matter of course)

I see how messing with the basic structure can take you somewhere wrong. The other day I tried this trick of omitting the minor third and using a perfect 11th but this time on a m7 chord instead of a m7b5 and the result is no longer related to the original chord.

Of course if you want a more jazzy jazz sound you can add a seventh as well - major or minor. For example Bill Evans uses Dm9(maj7) on beautiful love but on guitar it’s hard to get the same clustering. Sid Jacobs has some tricks though.

Bill Evans is really the model for that added note harmony I would say. Bop pianists tended to have simpler left hand chords. Usually shells. (You can build structures on shells though.) You don’t really want to be adding any notes on a New Orleans style gig (except maybe on dominants sometimes)

I need to check out the original changes to Beautiful Love. I'm familiar with the New Real Book ones, likely Bill Evans'. I suspect a few II-V there haven't always been there.

I had a somewhat revealing experience with that tune. I had given it a try but for some reason I wasn't really able to see how it works. Then one day I was in a venue listening to a band and I could instantly make sense of it all, just like that.

[alez]

Scottish mother, English father. I was born in Scotland and then went all over the place because we were an army family. Eventually settled in Sussex. I don't have a Scottish accent :-)

I was really surprised to find out that the accent in Edinburgh is so much easier to get. The difference with Glasgow is massive, which I find so unlikely because the two cities are like 30 minutes apart from each other! I used to travel a lot between the two cities because Easyjet does Madrid-Edinburgh.

Good luck with the job hunting.

Thank you very much. It's more difficult since Brexit, but we'll see.

I have a prospect in Portsmouth, that's close to where you live, right? South of England.

[alez]

• V-of-major by adding a sixth and omitting the perfect fourth
• m7, m6, m7b5 just like you've described (added natural ninth)
• m7b5 by adding an 11th and omitting the minor third (this one puzzled me)

And if you consider G7 = Bm7b5 = Dm6, much of above (but not all) comes from the same interval, that's the one between the notes e and f.

[Christian Miller]

Understood, thanks. Again really interesting.



I would've thought the interval had to sound harsh but I've been introduced to piano voicings that use it and it's actually pleasant. I've been using it on:

• V-of-major by adding a sixth and omitting the perfect fourth
• m7, m6, m7b5 just like you've described (added natural ninth)
• m7b5 by adding an 11th and omitting the minor third (this one puzzled me)

I see how messing with the basic structure can take you somewhere wrong. The other day I tried this trick of omitting the minor third and using a perfect 11th but this time on a m7 chord instead of a m7b5 and the result is no longer related to the original chord.



I need to check out the original changes to Beautiful Love. I'm familiar with the New Real Book ones, likely Bill Evans'. I suspect a few II-V there haven't always been there.

I had a somewhat revealing experience with that tune. I had given it a try but for some reason I wasn't really able to see how it works. Then one day I was in a venue listening to a band and I could instantly make sense of it all, just like that.

The bill evans one is obviously not the original changes … but it is a seminal record by of the tune as far as the modern jazz rep goes obviously.

actually this is one I haven’t checked out. Rabbit hole time.

Edit: oh it’s a waltz

JGC History (Jazz Guitar Comprehensive) is a very useful channel…)

It’s not unusual for changes to change vastly between the original songbook and the changes in circulation among jazz players, not to mention the various reharms and reimaginings of popular tunes …

The NRB tends to do a decent job of presenting the ‘modern standard use changes.’ For songbook changes Dick Hyman’s books are indispensable but criminally out of print. Luckily the internet is quite useful for all this detective work, not to mention the power of the ears.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alez]

The bill evans one is obviously not the original changes … but it is a seminal record by of the tune as far as the modern jazz rep goes obviously.

I see. So Bill Evans' version is pretty much what makes this tune a standard.

actually this is one I haven’t checked out. Rabbit hole time.

I've been in rabbit hole mode most weekend because of this thread

Edit: oh it’s a waltz

Oh, wow, it's so cool!

I love jazz waltz. It leads to really cool phrasing simply alternating between swing 8ths and 8th triplets because when you play triplets you get 9 notes per measure.

Speaking of which, I'm loving the album Jazz in the Key of Blue (2008 or maybe 2009):
Unsupported browser

It has 3 waltz numbers and a chilled, mellow atmosphere.

JGC History (Jazz Guitar Comprehensive) is a very useful channel…)

Noted and subscribed, thanks.

It’s not unusual for changes to change vastly between the original songbook and the changes in circulation among jazz players, not to mention the various reharms and reimaginings of popular tunes …

Changes gonna change

Maybe if the harmonies are already "good for jazz", then leave them alone (for example old school jazz). If not, then jazz them up some (for example I think many tunes that come from musicals are probaly not "useful" as-is).

The NRB tends to do a decent job of presenting the ‘modern standard use changes.’ For songbook changes Dick Hyman’s books are indispensable but criminally out of print. Luckily the internet is quite useful for all this detective work, not to mention the power of the ears.

Because of its general quality, the NRB is great if you understand what it's about, exactly like you described. But if you don't get it, it makes older tunes look more complicated than they are (or need to be) until you realise that the same "big picture" can be achieved with less complexity.