Voice leading/counterpoint approach to standards

[Christian Miller]

I'm totally confused by those numbers (5, 3, 6 etc). Do they have a name I can use to look up on wikipedia to better understand?

They are diatonic intervals above the bass

See also
Figured bass - Wikipedia

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[Liarspoker]

I did! I used bastardised Canadian English mind you.

Ah, just found it. A Barry Harris book

[TheGrandWazoo]

They are diatonic intervals above the bass

See also
Figured bass - Wikipedia

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Are those in metric?


jk. I'm an idiot. I cant believe I didnt see that.

[Liarspoker]

Replied to a post higher up in thread which was already answered. Nothing to see here.

[Tal_175]

Here is something I practice to this effect.
Suppose you are moving from Gmin to C7. Start with a voicing of Gmin7, lets say drop 2 with G bass on the A string (10th fret). Now move the bass down one step (to F in this case). There are three triads and four 7th chords that have F in it in the key. Play all of them with the F in the bass. Now go to E, do the same until you get to C. This gives you different ways to move horizontally with the Gmin sound. After a while you stop thinking inversions but it all becomes movement choices along different voices (bass, melody, and middle voices).

Next, I add chromatic notes. I don't go full combinatorics when it comes to chromatic notes but choose notes based on the voicing I'm targeting. The chromatic notes end up creating diminished or parallel voicings that lead to the next chord.

You can also play these as three note voicings. In that case you basically get Freddie Greene type walking chords.

[Tal_175]

In the exercise above, I avoid parallel motion by not moving between the same invesions. So if I'm descending (or ascending) from a root position chord, I go to a first, second or third inversion on the next bass note. That way I get mostly oblique motion (some voices stay the same) or similar motion.

It's hard to get contrary motion while strictly ascending and descending. But once you get familiar with available notes for each voice horizontally, it's easy to create new voicings by mixing and matching neighbour chords (ie borrowing in the BH jargon). Then you can stay on the same bass note for two beats while moving other voices in different directions.

[rpjazzguitar]

Here is something I practice to this effect.
Suppose you are moving from Gmin to C7. Start with a voicing of Gmin7, lets say drop 2 with G bass on the A string (10th fret). Now move the bass down one step (to F in this case). There are three triads and four 7th chords that have F in it in the key. Play all of them with the F in the bass. Now go to E, do the same until you get to C. This gives you different ways to move horizontally with the Gmin sound. After a while you stop thinking inversions but it all becomes movement choices along different voices (bass, melody, and middle voices).

Next, I add chromatic notes. I don't go full combinatorics when it comes to chromatic notes but choose notes based on the voicing I'm targeting. The chromatic notes end up creating diminished or parallel voicings that lead to the next chord.

You can also play these as three note voicings. In that case you basically get Freddie Greene type walking chords.

Trying to follow this. When you move the G to an F, what are the 3 triads and 4 seventh chords with F in the key? Thanks in advance ... I'd like to understand this better.

[Tal_175]

Trying to follow this. When you move the G to an F, what are the 3 triads and 4 seventh chords with F in the key? Thanks in advance ... I'd like to understand this better.

F maj (triad or 7th) - root position
D min (triad or 7th) - first inversion
Bb major (triad or 7th) - second inversion

Gmin7 (7th) - third inversion

[Tal_175]

Trying to follow this. When you move the G to an F, what are the 3 triads and 4 seventh chords with F in the key? Thanks in advance ... I'd like to understand this better.

You can also cycle through all of them by moving one voice at a time:
Fmaj7
x
x
10
9
10
8
x

Now move E to D (9 to 7 in the middle) you get D min7 first inversion
x
x
10
7
10
8
x

Now move C to Bb (10 to 8 on D string) you get Bb maj7 second inversion.

If you then move the final voice (G) to F (on B string), you get Gmin7 in third inversion.

Then do the same with E in the bass etc.

Once you get comfortable with these voicings, you can move on every beat choosing different voicings per beat and try different movements. As I said, after a while you mix and match voices as you move horizontally without thinking inversions.

[Christian Miller]

Not sure what this has to do with the OP, but I’m scarcely in a position to be the thread police lol


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[Tal_175]

Not sure what this has to do with the OP, but I’m scarcely in a position to be the thread police lol


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It seems similar to the diatonic voice movements that harmonize the same bass note in the op such as :Cmaj7 -> Am/C ... Emin -> C/E Fmaj7->Dmin/F
The exercise I do explores all options for that root which results in different type of inner and melody voice movements.

[Christian Miller]

It seems similar to the diatonic voice movements that harmonize the same bass note in the op such as :Cmaj7 -> Am/C ... Emin -> C/E Fmaj7->Dmin/F
The exercise I do explores all options for that root which results in different type of inner and melody voice movements.

Ah ok

Yeah I mean I’m thinking of the chord symbols being emergent from the voice leading rather than the other way around here.

I’m not starting with chords, but with a two or three part skeleton increasingly. Intervals really. Not thinking about root movement or inversions. It’s species counterpoint but instead of doing the exercises, you use the cheat sheet.

The chord symbols I give are a (clunky) representation of what’s going on.

So I have a 6th, you can add a third to that,
Or to a 5th. 3rd are good in parallel, 5ths are not so we break them up with the 6ths. That type of stuff. What chords we call them is a matter of notation.

There are certain contrapuntal combinations that work very well and as a result were used all the time. The Monte is a good example. The surprising thing is the exact same stuff turns up in jazz standards - even in bop heads - which I was not expecting. I suppose the Western ear is used to them.

Of course Jazzers and pop musicians understand that there are frequently used harmonic cliches, but in analysing these modules as chord symbols and numerals, I think the specifics about how the melody and other voices behave is lost. Not all ii V I’s are equal. The IIm9 V13 I for instance is much more common in the last few bars of standards than IIm7 V7 I6.

The most familiar example of when jazz musicians do take account of this is when playing guide tones on cycle 4 - and we have the tunes that clearly outline this counterpoint (dating Bach to the baroque era) but there are others as I hope to demonstrate.

If that makes any sense. I’m still not 100% on what this translates into in the jazz guitar world. The conception of improvisation in jazz is looser than the composition even of bop heads. Atm I think it’s value is in understanding tunes deeper and making solo arrangements and perhaps exploring options for reharmonisation. Possibly soloing approaches. I’m sure there’s more.

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[rpjazzguitar]

You can also cycle through all of them by m.

Thanks, it's clear now.

[rpjazzguitar]

You can also cycle through all of them by m.

Thanks, it's clear now.

[Christian Miller]

Amazing video of Jacob Collier handily demonstrating the polyphonic nature of moti de bassi. Here he does his audience choir thing, cueing voice movement with gestures. The relevant bit is from about 2:20

A few classic cadential moves including a cadenzia doppia. Although he a little unusually resolves it imperfectly (i.e. with an F rather than a D in the soprano).

Towards the end he cues the minor key 5-6 Monte and the audience gets it. These archetypes are deep in our collective musical unconscious. I don’t even know if Collier knows what a moti de basso is or a schemata (actually I suspect not) but it hardly matters. Obivously he’s been singing Bach since he was a small child.

(I would say Jacob’s approach to harmony is polyphonic rather than chordal. He sang before he played piano.)

[Liarspoker]

Obivously he’s been singing Bach since he was a small child.

Yes, the family sang, or maybe they still sing Bach Chorales for fun.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, the family sang, or maybe they still sing Bach Chorales for fun.

I dread to think


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[RLetson]

Good, um, heavens. That about had me in tears and smiling simultaneously. And thinking of the Barber Adagio.

[Liarspoker]

Just revised Ijzerman 1.1 and am just about to do the exercises again.

The best way to apply this stuff over standards is through improv imo.

I'd bet that if you played two or three part chord melody of a tune then played a chorus of this stuff it would sound way cool.

Something to aim for but also aim to play this stuff in pure improv letting the bass line dictate where you are going..... I'll see everyone in 10 years

Edit: This was meant to be a reply to the partimento thread but I guess that it fits here too.

[Christian Miller]

Here's another sheet. This will be expanded...