Changes you have a tough time internalizing support group...

**mr. beaumont** · 02-16-2024, 01:05 PM

Lots of talk about changes lately, got me thinking...are there any tunes you've found just brutal getting internalized?

For me it's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. And then of course, it's got different chords for the solos (at least those are easier to internalize)

Anybody have songs that really trip them up? And how did you get it together?

Feel free to chime in with your own or help others with theirs...

**pamosmusic** · 02-16-2024, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lots of talk about changes lately, got me thinking...are there any tunes you've found just brutal getting internalized?

For me it's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. And then of course, it's got different chords for the solos (at least those are easier to internalize)

Anybody have songs that really trip them up? And how did you get it together?

Feel free to chime in with your own or help others with theirs...

I think I’ve finally got it (famous last words) but If I Were a Bell just kept falling out of my brain for years.

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-16-2024, 02:51 PM

Stella in any key but Bb gave me trouble.

**John A.** · 02-16-2024, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

I think I’ve finally got it (famous last words) but If I Were a Bell just kept falling out of my brain for years.

Ditto. I have to say that in general, if I've played something a bazillion times in my own sessions/gigs it gets more or less indelibly imprinted. But if it's an every once in a while thing someone else call at a jam, especially if it's got some sort of little re-harm or non-obvious device (e.g., like the way IIWaB starts with II7 V7 I instead of ii V7), it tends to get lost, and my brain tends to go for the vanilla (and wrong) harmony.

**jameslovestal** · 02-16-2024, 03:22 PM

Stardust.

**AllanAllen** · 02-16-2024, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by jameslovestal

Stardust.

Can confirm, Stardust is currently killing me.

**pamosmusic** · 02-16-2024, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

Ditto. I have to say that in general, if I've played something a bazillion times in my own sessions/gigs it gets more or less indelibly imprinted. But if it's an every once in a while thing someone else call at a jam, especially if it's got some sort of little re-harm or non-obvious device (e.g., like the way IIWaB starts with II7 V7 I instead of ii V7), it tends to get lost, and my brain tends to go for the vanilla (and wrong) harmony.

It’s usually the bridge for me. And to answer the question posed in the OP … simplified chord changes really helped in that one. They don’t always … but in that case it certainly did.

**ragman1** · 02-16-2024, 04:06 PM

If it happens I simplify them. Then when I'm playing the simple stuff I think 'This is a bit simple' and I remember how it ought to go. Magic :-)

**Rick5** · 02-17-2024, 10:31 AM

I have the opposite problem. I seem to be able to remember changes easily, but I will flub heads if I don't practice my repertoire very frequently.

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**mjo** · 02-19-2024, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lots of talk about changes lately, got me thinking...are there any tunes you've found just brutal getting internalized?

For me it's Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. And then of course, it's got different chords for the solos (at least those are easier to internalize)

Anybody have songs that really trip them up? And how did you get it together?

Feel free to chime in with your own or help others with theirs...

Amen to Pork Pie Hat !
I had to look this one up, after I heard it. I found a couple good charts here. thanks to those guys for posting them ! This aint Autumn Leaves -LOL
I've had to rely on my stripped down, 3 note voicings for this, in that way I'll reuse a couple forms for different chords. I REALLY have to get the melody down cold. it's just 12 bars in the main section, but it feels a couple bars too long. This is the lowest, downest blues I've ever heard .... it nearly strangles the life out of you before it lets you up -LOL
I like to "nod" too the melody for a solo, but I don't know man ... this one's a work out.
...freakin Mingus...

-Cheers,
Mike

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-19-2024, 08:54 PM

Getting my jazz blues changes together on Hammond about killed me lol. I had to play it every day for like 2 years. Outlining the changes in the bass in the left hand and then doing blues vocab in the right hand while hitting the changes some of the time. Some of the changes are quick and you have to keep track of that in the left hand while phrasing just on the 1 blues vocab over that.

The changes I use.

C7 / F7 / C7 / G-7 C7
F7 / F7 / C7 / E-7 A7
D-7 / G7 / C7 A7 / D-7 G7

**ragman1** · 02-20-2024, 06:24 PM

I'd change key. Most blues are in F or Bb.

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-20-2024, 07:34 PM

I play all my tunes in every key. I spend several days in 1 key and play everything in that key then move up a half step. That could be why it took so long for it to take, but I don't like being inept in some of the keys.

**AllanAllen** · 02-20-2024, 08:35 PM

I’m inept in all keys.

**ragman1** · 02-22-2024, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

I play all my tunes in every key. I spend several days in 1 key and play everything in that key then move up a half step. That could be why it took so long for it to take, but I don't like being inept in some of the keys.

Why don't you get a list of the most commonly played blues, see what the keys involve, and do them? Then, if you must, do unusual keys after or later.

Keys of tunes which occur more than most will stick in the mind more than an ascending exercise because there they simply all mush together.

**pamosmusic** · 02-22-2024, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Why don't you get a list of the most commonly played blues, see what the keys involve, and do them? Then, if you must, do unusual keys after or later.

Keys of tunes which occur more than most will stick in the mind more than an ascending exercise because there they simply all mush together.

Hmmm … yeah some things (ii-Vs, common turnarounds) are probably worth doing in twelve keys but good point. Whole tunes … C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab … sometimes Db and G … rarely any further. (Also the corresponding relative minor keys.)

So you could probably focus

I do things in other keys but usually work around the circle in the direction of more common keys. All the Things in Ab … then Eb … Bb … etc. that way if I get bored then I got the big stuff.

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-22-2024, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Why don't you get a list of the most commonly played blues, see what the keys involve, and do them? Then, if you must, do unusual keys after or later.

Keys of tunes which occur more than most will stick in the mind more than an ascending exercise because there they simply all mush together.

I thought of focusing on getting the changes down in the easy keys, but I committed to my every key practice 2 years ago and don't like deviating from it. It bothers me to not be able to play well in some of the keys and the only way to fix that is to put in time playing in them. I know blues are typically in F and Bb but my goal is to play equally well or nearly as well in every key.