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Originally Posted by garybaldy
of course there is no such thing as a jazz chord. What you don’t find in Bach you will find in C20 repertoire.
What there is is a jazz way of hearing chords and applying them. The grammar is different. that Maj7#5 chord in a baroque piece is going to resolve, right?
If you go back through the history of jazz you tend to get major sevenths articulated in the melody but not the accompaniment - as early as the 1920s.
The sound is not heard as dissonant as it is in common practice harmony. But this seems to me often to be more like layering a minor chord on a major chord - Am on F (Blues for Alice or Struttin with some Barbeque) or Gm on Eb (Misty) say. I suspect this is the genesis of the maj7 chord sound as we understand it in jazz.
later on accompanying chords started to reflect the melody of the song in more detail (I want to say bill evans, but maybe Ahmad) and then you have Herbie playing with both hands together. That’s the basis of the way a lot of piano players play, they started with that.
I think this may have been the big impetus for chord scale thinking to become central and this modern emphasis on the chords reflecting the extensions suggested by the melody.
Before then, players were more relaxed about harmonic clashes between the chords and the melody for instance, sometimes even embracing them. Chord symbols were simple (look at the charts of the time for standards). The Barry harris school still views it in these terms.
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01-02-2024 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
So in terms of, orchestra rhythm guitar, say - we would look on the major 7th as being a dissonant chord. The 7-6 move is pretty standard embellishment, so yes you would resolve it. (Barry called that note a 'borrowed note' of course)
When I started playing earlier jazz I was told never to play a major seventh chord! Of course they can be played in that style provided you understand them as a dissonance. But it's good advice for modern players looking to play earlier stuff.
BUT in complete contrast, if you look at jazz melody in relation to chords, the use of the major seventh on a major chord is pretty frequent even in some songbook repertoire. After You've Gone does it on both the I and IV chords for instance.
And going further get 11ths, 9ths, major 7ths, all sorts in the melody of 'In a Sentimental Mood.' That doesn't mean you play these notes in your old school strumming of course. This 'rhythm section/frontline' distinction in harmonic practice is much less clear in modern jazz, but is still somewhat present in Bud Powell's playing for example. Barry Harris himself could be highly colouristic in his approach to harmony, but he still had a conceptual grounding in this earlier rhythm section/front line distinction.
OTOH some interesting 'middle ground.'
First - guitar solo chord melody playing, which was already a thing in the 1930s. You have to put those jazz notes into the voicings of the chords right?
Second - arranging for horns. Obviously this could get quite adventurous, especially with people like Ellington. You do sometimes hear colouristic ending chords even in quite early stuff, major 9ths and things. Again, I doubt the banjo/left hand piano would have reflected these chords in their playing.
We see this distinction between the harmony and melody somewhat preserved in Barry's teaching.
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If Christian published a book on the development and connections of harmony through the ages, I'd buy it. Well read, good ears, concise writing.
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
As for the rest of what's being discussed, alterations, extensions etc. I really believe that the key to understanding almost all of it is learn the concept of stacking thirds from the major scale and realizing that every chord dervived by that method, by definition includes every note in the scale. We don't use all of them all the time but they're all there available for us to explore. It's something that anyone should be able to learn, at least conceptually in about an hour. You can then spend the rest of your life exploring the possibilities.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
How is this presented? Staff, grip diagrams, tab? I don't see it in the description.
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Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Suppose you have good enough ears to know exactly what notes, arp, scale, device or whatever the soloist is playing. Does that mean you're supposed to comp the same thing? If it's a ii V I in C and you hear a Db7 arp against the V chord, does that mean next chorus you should play a Db7? If you do, the solo goes from sounding hip to sounding as vanilla as can be. Or, if the soloist is outlining D7, does that mean you should never, ever play D9#11?
Yet, I'd often heard the dictum that you should be able to know, immediately. what the soloist is doing and somehow do the same thing.
But, in reality, if the soloist is sparse and vanilla, a comping choice might be more harmonically adventurous, within the limits of good taste. If the soloist is busy and half outside the harmony, you may want to comp vanilla to give him all the tensions and control over the resolutions.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-02-2024 at 09:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Harmony is not a series of static moments in time. You can play quite a few passing chords if you know what you are doing. My favourite for this is Peter Bernstein. He does all this stuff and yet he's never in the way of the soloist. Dissonance actually helps drive the music along.. in this sense clashes are not be avoided, but harnessed.
A competent soloist does not need you to play the changes. So, you are responding to what they do.
My prerogative with this stuff is to try and be where the soloist is not. That's registral, rhythmic, dynamic, timbral and yes, harmonic. But in general if the soloist is playing a bunch of colour, you don't need to. The contribution becomes more rhythmic, the chords can stay simple.
OTOH if the soloist is playing something very simple the opportunity exists to do something colourful. It's not always the right thing to do, but it is an option.
Yet, I'd often heard the dictum that you should be able to know, immediately. what the soloist is doing and somehow do the same thing.
Veteran jazzers hear what you do and don't. They'll be hearing the whole music.
Interaction is not about joining in.
But, in reality, if the soloist is sparse and vanilla, a comping choice is be more harmonically adventurous, within the limits of good taste. If the soloist is busy and half outside the harmony, you may want to comp vanilla to give him all the tensions and control over the resolutions.Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-03-2024 at 04:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
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My favourite for this is Peter Bernstein.
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Originally Posted by jumpnblues
Reading back, Rob's post (#5) was helpful and relevant to the (level of the) question, with hints that the maj7 may indeed be followed (or replaced) by a maj6, or some variation thereof. Good teacher, I would surmise. Fact is, a lot of people out there say "C maj.", then proceed quite nonchalantly to fret a Cmaj.7, and it definitely looks like a case of common practice. Not being a real jazzbo, this is just an observation.
The rest of the discussion here seems like a great way to scare off and confuse a noob, "tbf".
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
So, I'll just write what I like to hear when I'm soloing.
1. Keep the groove grooving.
2. Don't push me in any direction I don't want to go.
Hmm.
I thought it would be longer when I started.
I might have added some nonsense about feeding interesting harmony, I suppose.
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So... someone answered the OP's questions before this went off piste, right?
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Originally Posted by Peter C
A for the last bit about scaring off and confusing a noob. This is the way.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
It starts happening at around 3:35 -
RIP Nick Gravenites
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