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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
    Everybody is worried about the harmony and which notes you can play. I didn't read one comment from anybody about the most important part of his playing: the swing (or soul, or heart and soul, or whatever you want to call it).
    If someone creates a thread to ask about chord analysis, it would be considered OT (Off Topic) to change the subject to the topics you mention.

    Personally I don't have any issue with threads getting derailed and taking new directions, but if someone creates a thread to ask about harmony or any other "less important" topic I don't see any urgency to redirect the attention to the single "most important" topic. There is enough space to cover multiple topics of varied importance.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    In the section ‘chords, comping and chord progressions’? Fair

    however the fact that there is no ‘feel, rhythm and swing’ section tells you all you need to know about JGO

    Anyway it might be interesting to have a discussion about how different chord progressions ‘feel’; I often recognise progressions by ‘feel’ when learning tunes.

    The IVm feels a certain way, the II7 another....

  4. #53

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    I had a teacher that said he always associates the whole tone scale with water.
    I on the other hand think the whole tone scale feels like a children's TV character having a wierd dream.

    Considering all the "warm" and "woody" kind of vocabulary when discussing tone in the gear section I can imagine that a "Feel" section might perhaps include a lot of "water" and "wierd dreams" sort of vocabulary?


    ...but on the topic of Wave harmony I came to think of the intro on the Wave album (with the giraffe) where he plays G/D rather than G7 and he also uses a whole step movement instead of the more typical half step down movement (7th of II-7 to the 3rd in the V7).

    First two bars he uses 5-7-3 voicing for the Dm7 and then he moves it up a whole step to 3-5-r of the G.
    (either xxx211 to xxx433, or xx756x to xx978).
    Then when the flute comes in he changes it to r-7-3-5 on the Dm7 and 5-5-r-3 on the G/D. (either xx0565 to xx0787, or 10,x,10,10,10,x to 10,x,12,12,12,x)

    This whole step parallel movement definitely feels different than the half step down movement. It feels wavy
    Last edited by orri; 09-24-2020 at 11:44 AM.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by orri
    I had a teacher that said he always associates the whole tone scale with water.
    I on the other hand think the whole tone scale feels like a children's TV character having a wierd dream.
    I always think of the whole tone as the scale of comedy. But yer man was probably thinking of Debussy.

    Considering all the "warm" and "woody" kind of vocabulary when discussing tone in the gear section I can imagine that a "Feel" section might perhaps include a lot of "water" and "wierd dreams" sort of vocabulary?
    Haha maybe - I think that would do a lot to enliven these rather dry discussions.

    I often think of symmetrical scales as crystalline, and asymmetrical scales as more like shells or flowers, for instance.

    ...but on the topic of Wave harmony I came to think of the intro on the Wave album (with the giraffe) where he plays G/D rather than G7 and he also uses a whole step movement instead of the more typical half step down movement (7th of II-7 to the 3rd in the V7).

    First two bars he uses 5-3-7 voicing for the Dm7 and then he moves it up a whole step to 3-5-r of the G.
    (either xxx211 to xxx433, or xx756x to xx978).
    Then when the flute comes in he changes it to r-7-3-5 on the Dm7 and 5-5-r-3 on the G/D. (either xx0565 to xx0787, or 10,x,10,10,10,x to 10,x,12,12,12,x)

    This whole step parallel movement definitely feels different than the half step down movement. It feels wavy
    Nice I'll have to get into that. Jobim was of course as influenced by the Impressionists as he was by Jazz.

    The way the Real Book and jazz lead sheets reify everything into banal chord symbols has always distorted and misrepresented Brazilian music (it's also a problem for American jazz, too, but in jazz we are more used to dealing with a system that sucks, and it has in fact affected - perhaps stunted - the evolution of the music.

    But - you do not want me to post the section from my last essay on how overly technicist jazz education reifies and distorts harmonic concepts lol)

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But yer man was probably thinking of Debussy.
    Spot on.
    He was in fact talking about the whole tone scale in context with Dubussy.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by orri
    If someone creates a thread to ask about chord analysis, it would be considered OT (Off Topic) to change the subject to the topics you mention.

    Personally I don't have any issue with threads getting derailed and taking new directions, but if someone creates a thread to ask about harmony or any other "less important" topic I don't see any urgency to redirect the attention to the single "most important" topic. There is enough space to cover multiple topics of varied importance.
    Noted
    Last edited by eh6794-2.0; 09-23-2020 at 05:28 PM.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    In the section ‘chords, comping and chord progressions’? Fair

    however the fact that there is no ‘feel, rhythm and swing’ section tells you all you need to know about JGO
    Exactly. Thank you. I will never be a really good guitarist, but there are a lot of people on this website who have great abilities, but they ignore the most important part of jazz music. I want to hear more great guitarists.

    This topic scares a lot of people.

  9. #58

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    Feel, rhythm and swing is EVERYTHING to me. You can play the most basic notes, but if you have that together you will sound great.

    Like a great chef making a fantastic dish from simple ingredients.

    I have none of that naturally, but I think I'm getting more of it as time goes on. Studying with a great drummer ATM.

  10. #59

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    It's never really struck me before but if you think of the first chord, D6/9 as an inverted Bm11, the opening of Wave is basically an extended version of the distinctive turnaround that features in this month's practical standard, Out of Nowhere: Bm7-Bbo7-Am7-D7- Gmaj7. Of course, the 'D' root and cadential nature of Jobim's opening melody leads us to hear that progression as leading to a IV rather than I chord when it arrives at Gmaj7 but the relationship between the two may be worth a moment's reflection.

  11. #60

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    Yeah that's an old school move. Sweet Lorraine springs to mind, that turnarond into IV.

  12. #61

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    Ted Greene on Wave