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Hi everyone!. Just a question: Why does Joe Pass substitute a min7 chord for a dominant so the original I-vi-ii-V7 progression: Cmaj7-Am7-Dmin7-G7 ends up like this with this substitutions: Cmaj7-A7-D7-G7. Anyone?
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06-07-2023 12:49 PM
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Wht not?
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Well, most basically because you can
Although you do need to talk that stuff over with a band...playing solo, anything goes.
Joe was a pretty simple thinker-- major, minor, dominant. He'd often view ii-V's as just V. Joe liked dominant chords...probably because there's just so many things you can play on them.
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Not only Joe Pass.
It makes it a secondary dominant chord to the next chord- if melodic context allows why not use it if you wish of course.
To my ear it changes the overall sound quite strongly and brings the feeling of a circle of 5ths like it is all rather
about shifting V - I around
I-vi-ii-V is much more static and soft and sounds more like a variation of I - I - IV - V
And also to me it has kind of very 'old school' vibe... swing era, dixi, though bebop has quite a lot of tunes with that harmony and it is also often used
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Right, a stronger pull - is why he substitutes a Dom7 for a Min7, or substitutes a Min7 with a Dom7.
Originally Posted by Jonah
But he also makes a point that you can sub a Dom7 with a Min7-Dom7. That is, a G7 becomes a Dmin7-G7. A standard jazz thing to do.
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It enhances tension and release- pay attention to the way the middle voice moves. It's a very common substitution for players of his generation; Herb Ellis used to do this a lot, as well.
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It's a standard move in jazz, basically, because it sounds good.
If you try it both ways, you might like the dominant better. And, for improv there may be (arguably) more things to play over a dominant than a minor.
I think it sounds a little less vanilla.
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Yes, enhances tension and sounds less vanilla.
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You can sub an altered dom for a dominant, so subbing a minor 7 chord for Dom7 is like putting Dom7#9 in place of the vanilla Dom7. Example: instead of D-7 G7 Cmaj you can play D-7 G-7 Cmaj. It can sound like the G-7 is a G7#9.
Another way to look at it: we are so used to hearing circle-of-fourths root movement as V-I or ii-V-I or (in harmonic minor) V-i that our ears will hear any of those chord qualities (major, minor, dominant) in any of those places as dominant-to-(temporary)-tonic.
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IMO the way dominant seventh chords work is rarely explained properly: Take G7 to C. There is a tritone between the B and the F which has a strong tension and therefore a strong tendency to resolve (chromatically) to the major third comprised of C and E. (In our equally tempered system you could interpret B and F as Cb and F which has a tendency to resolve into the other direction to Gb and Bb -- this is how tritone substitution works.) In a chain of dominants the tritone C# and G of A7 resolves to D and F# of D, then C and F# of D7 resolve to G and B of G7, and so on.
I have to give German guitarist Werner Pöhlert's books credit for teaching me this long time ago. BTW this is my own finding-- why a dominant seventh with flatted ninth works so well in minor: Take G7b9 to Cm. The chromatic resolution of third to seventh and seventh to third does not work so well here as the third of the target chord is a minor one, a whole step away from the seventh of the dominant. But there is a second tritone comprised of the fifth and minor ninth of the dominant which resolves to the fifth and third of the minor chord: D and Ab to Eb and G.
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We have a great article here at JGO: Originally Posted by lukatherknopfler
How To Practice And Apply Back Cycling On Guitar (jazzguitar.be)
It back-cycles as far as seven jumps:
Key: Bb, 2b7-5b7-77-37-67-27-57-17
Jump 1: Frere Jacques, Camptown Races
Jump 2: Strutters' Ball, Hello My Baby
Jump 3: Jada, Sweet Georgia Brown
Jump 4: Basin Street, Five Foot Two
Jump 5: Red Roses For A Blue Lady, Yesterday
Jump 6: Bebop Tunes with altered dominants, Woodn' You: 5bm7b5-77-3m7b5-67-2m7b5-57-1M7
Jump 7: Bebop Tunes with altered dominants
When Back-Cycling, we can replace 6m7 with 67 because secondary dominant chords are part of the Jazz Sound and are often in-play. The mental trick is to think of the target chord and then determine what its V7 should be. If the target chord is a 2m7, then the V7 of 2m7 is a 67. One may embellish them as their ear decides. When studying Dixieland arranging, I read that using all dominant sevenths around the cycle is called a Dominant March. Banjoists loved the juxtaposition of a Dominant Seventh March progression with o7 substitutions and passing chords. We hear this in Dixieland still.
We've all seen 2b 5b 7m7-5 3 67 2m7 57 1M
From the master himself:
At 31:40, Herb Ellis tells us that he prefers [1M 67 2m7 57] to [1M 6m7 2m7 57], but that he can deal with both.
Keep this video as a favourite as it keeps on giving.
(At 19:30 he shows us that Jazz Guitarists do bend strings... There's a thread here somewhere with a gang of wannabees arguing tooth and nail that bending strings is a faux-pas in jazz... oh, well.)
He says we can use a 6m7 and play a tonic M7 or major scale directly over it. Otherwise, use a VI7 and play a VI dom7 scale.
[1M 67 2m7 57] is especially suitable in an two bar turnaround, regardless of the A-section changes. In Tritone Subs, I like the sound of a 2b7/6 (or 13th). In the Rhythm Changes, we have to experiment and find the Quality our ear likes best:
m7, m9, m11, m7-5 vs. dom7 with 9ths, 13ths, +/-5, +/-9.
The third of the Submediant chord here is important to the soloist. This should be talked about before the session.
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 06-08-2023 at 01:09 AM.
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I don't think he said that, for rhythm changes he played a lot of substitutions. Originally Posted by lukatherknopfler
About the ii degree he said he didn't need it because it prepares the dominant, so overthinking about the ii degree is not useful because we are already on the dominant.
For a rhythm changes, it's another thing, it's a very open form. You can think whatever you want.
Maybe he would say you can think a I vi ii V like a I V or the opposite or a I V like I III7 ii V ...
He said that when he had to play with a pianist, he said every pianist had his way to play a turnaround.
That was the episode with Duke Ellington.
But about a rhythm changes he never said this I believe.
He said that about tunes like Just Friends, Stella By Starlight. Too many ii V.
By the way, on a cycle of fifths it's very commun to put kind of dominant colours (the way you described it) on a cycle of fifths, bass players do it.
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29:40
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Turnback progression-may have different variations with substitution chords.
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That blues tape is very good, of course, but he's starting with dominants as opposed to substituting them into lines with minors in them, like CM7/Am7 - Dm7/G7, etc.
As I recall, CM7/Am9 - Dm11/G13 was one of his, very diatonic. But when he substituted it became all kinds of things. It might be CM7/A7#9 - D13/G7alt or CM7/A7b13 - D9/Db7#11, and so on. He was a master at that kind of thing.
The thing is the basic tonality isn't changed. But the OP's question was why he did it. Well, because he could
but basically it makes it more interesting for the listener.
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Probably because he heard the people that influenced him do it.
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why?
Soloing without a rhythm section allows you to play these chord substitutes.
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He did play solo most of the time, or with vocalists like Ella. He probably didn't do much substitution playing with other instruments.
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It would actually be a good exercise to loop a dominant and play over it for a long time.'Jazz Lines' vid'
I think you'll like this, Kris :-)
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Well, one of the exercises of a jazz guitarist.
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What Barry Greene was doing is your style, it's what I've seen you do. Very well, like that So What video. And what you were playing in that small club. Really excellent playing.
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so it makes it a 'both way working' model)) Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Some might say that jazzers playing IImi7 V7 instead of just V7, had a different motivation.
Thoughts?
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ii is just V in second inversion.
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