Drop3, Drop2&3, and Drop2&4 chord voicings

[Christian Miller]

I'm guessing that the voicings on the lowest 3 strings sound best on an archtop?

I tend to avoid voicings that use both the E and A strings together. Chuck Berry would disagree. Chuck Wayne had a full set of voicings for the lower 4 strings not just the inner 4 and higher 4.

I also have the pickup lowered on the bass side and I use a .42 E string (that's for arthritis, not for the flabby tone). But, I'm playing a semi, with a block, that has a fairly dark tone to begin with.

Pretty much the first thing I was told about jazz guitar chords was that the E and A strings sound muddy together. I don’t think it did me any harm but I did learn later that like most ‘rules’ in jazz it is a guideline not a law engraved in a stone tablet somewhere.

For instance Drop 2 second inversion chords sound FAT as ending chords with the bass (with bass the voicing goes 1-5-1-3-7) so there’s a lot of fifths and it more or less follows the overtone sequence which I remember reading in an orchestration book is the best way to voice tutti chords.

if I had to stereotype the Rosenwinkel chord sound for example I’d say it’s a lot of drop 2’s on the bottom four a lot of fourths and fifths. He loves this sort of thing in his writing. It’s like a rock approach in someways but it also remind me of McCoy Tyner.

My understanding of comping is that it is arranging on the fly. You should know lots of possibilities and use you ear to orchestrate on the fly paying attention to the different instruments.

Bass players understandably get a bit twitchy but again it’s worth pointing out that some of the baddest pianists of all time had pretty bassy left hands. Yet we often teach as if everyone should play like Bill Evans, which is a great way to play, but it’s the exception not the rule if we look at the totality of jazz piano. Neither can a bass play like scott Le faro if the situation calls for a Jimmy Garrison approach.

obviously the EQ characteristics of a club upright, a miked Steinway and a stage piano are all different as are a Stromberg acoustic archtop and an ES335 into a Fender Twin. You have to use your ears and experience ultimately. Feedback is also good.

[Jonah]

What scares me about giving advice in these areas - at least when you do not have possibility to talk it over in person - is that people tend to take it as 'either/or' which is almost never aplicable in any artistic area.

Once somebody (eve as authoritive as Peter) says 'Drop the 5th' ... there is always someone who begins to give examples where the 5th sounds good etc.

In my opinion any 'general approach' is litterally general - it illustrates general mode of thinking (important thing is to understand what kind of musical thinking is behind particular technical or harmonic formula)
And then you can always find you way off or around it in details...

[PMB]

Looking at the video posted above, I can see the bassist having a hard time. He's clenching his face as he struggles to hear his instrument. Then he even stops playing his fiddle and no one seems to miss him. Then he fiddles with the amp a number of times to find a volume setting or frequency notch to differentiate himself from the guitar's incursions into the bass realm.

Rick Rosato only starts fiddling with his bass amp once the drummer brings it up a few notches around 1'45". That clip's from Smalls, a pretty tiny room as the name suggests and drums (and drummers) can easily get out of control. I see nothing but respect and awe in Rick's face when turning to Pete. I've hung with PB a number of times and everyone on the scene, regardless of their instrument, shows that same attitude when either playing with or approaching him.

[pamosmusic]

Wow, well I suppose that’s Pete told.

Man, I forgot how much I love this place.

[Christian Miller]

How dare anyone suggest I milk this forum for inspiration

[pcjazz]

I sometimes get the feeling that guitarists are more likely than pianists to play every quarter or even every eighth. Not always, just more of the time. A lot of us learn to strum before we comp more sparsely and Freddie remains an influence, making quarters sound great.

Pianists rarely play every quarter. They are more likely to be emphasizing the transitions from one chord to another.

That is, if you have 8 beats of Cmajor going to E7 (e.g. All of Me), the guitarist may play on quite a few of those 8 beats.

The pianist is more likely to play a little on the first 6 or so, and then do a chord sequence leading to the E7 -- which, I think, is what Reg was talking about (something like, say, Cm7 F7 E7, to take a simple example - you get nice voice leading from Cmaj to Cm7, changing E to Eb and B to Bb, then nice voice leading from Cm7 to F7 (Bb to A) and then a half note slide into the E7). Reg is great at this. Another terrific player who I heard comp this way at Small's is Ed Cherry.

Ralph Sharon, long time pianist for Tony Bennett, was an absolute master of this.

But the main reason the guitar plays time (quarter notes) is that the piano is comping freely. It rarely works to have two simultaneous comping instruments in the ensemble. Sometimes I’ll ask the pianist to play time or lay out over a section of a chart so that I can comp. For example, piano and guitar alternating comping behind repeated solo passages in a big band.

[pcjazz]

one of the nice compliments I got from a bass player is that I know to roll off the bass. It was a gypsy jazz gig but I was on an ES175. Playing swing rhythm on electric you pretty much have to dial out most of the bass or you’ll be making muddy puddles (or you could do the one note comp thing but that’s not really the GJ style). I’d been playing in these settings for a long time. In general, the bass and the guitar should sound like one composite instrument here.

This and being a Peter fan has really convinced me that fundamentally this is an EQ’ing/mix issue. It’s one reason why I broadly speaking prefer 10” to 12” speakers; the latter generates a lot of fat low end which sounds great solo but not so good in a band mix. However I think a lot of players think ‘jazztone(tm)’ is the treble down to 0 and bass and middle up to max. This may indeed work for a small amp, but for a Fender Deluxe at gig volume you need to tame that bottom end.

In fact you need a tight, tidy sound which makes space for acoustic bass. That said how it sounds on stage may not be how it sounds out front - but in my experience the bass player listens more than the audience haha. So I try to keep them happy on the whole.

This, and use the bass cut or hi-pass filter on your amp or preamp if you have them.

[rpjazzguitar]

But the main reason the guitar plays time (quarter notes) is that the piano is comping freely. It rarely works to have two simultaneous comping instruments in the ensemble. Sometimes I’ll ask the pianist to play time or lay out over a section of a chart so that I can comp. For example, piano and guitar alternating comping behind repeated solo passages in a big band.

If the pianist is always comping freely, that's right. The guitarist has to find a complementary part -- and Freddie found one that works great.

If, particularly in other styles than swing, the pianist decided to comp rhythmically, the guitar has to find a complementary part, and, usually can, unless the pianist is filling every 16th note.

To my ear, I find alternating to be jarring. I know that others don't think that way. My preference is when the pianist and guitarist play sparsely enough, and/or consistent enough, to make it all one big comp.

[Christian Miller]

I think it can be made to work either way, but the guitar needs to play very stripped down if the piano is using left hand. The classic Basie thing is very sparse piano.

[jackalGreen]

Bass players understandably get a bit twitchy but again it’s worth pointing out that some of the baddest pianists of all time had pretty bassy left hands. Yet we often teach as if everyone should play like Bill Evans, which is a great way to play, but it’s the exception not the rule if we look at the totality of jazz piano.

Thank you for saying that. I've heard it so many times online that it's like a broken mantra. AFAIC, you can't play bebop on (acoustic, not Rhodes!) piano in the traditional way without constantly going way down there. Sometimes even staying down there! It's a skill that transfers to other areas in life as well.

It's probably important to restate, just as a great example of how much dogma can be perpetuated without really being true in practice.

I don't have much to add to the theory of drop-2, drop-3, &c. voicings: I've known about them since a kid doing, you know, music theory exercises independent of any instrument, and reading books on arranging a long time ago, but with my keyboardist hat on (pianos, Hammond organ), I've never consciously been aware of mechanically working them out. Yes, the term comes up in some of those "master jazz piano in five hundred pages!" books, but I'm not even going to go there.

In fact, it's only since getting back into guitar that I've heard these terms as frequently.

To me, the voicings I acquire for comping (I don't do chord-melody at all, just "regular" jazz, not meant to be insulting to masters at solo guitar style at all) either are copped straight from Grant Green, Wes, and so many others, or something I think about a bit and try to play.

But at a kind of theoretical level, when trying to figure out something nice, on like a dom7 chord, I'll think, "yeah, I want the 13 close to the top, and try to put a 'butter' note that fits the melody way up top, don't need the fifth unless it's augmented, don't want the root, unless it's the top note and I suck so hard, I don't want to mute any strings with the fretting hand, so, three notes to play with, and if I can squeeze a fourth note in there easily, add that!"

That's my simpleton approach. Want the Third, the Seventh, the 13, some alteration of the 9th, ideally all four. Occasionally a chord emerges that I can actually play without too much effort without trying to force my fingers into weird places. All on the top strings, always. It's just a matter of a happy accident if I can invert the chord so a "nice" note ends up on top that is close to the melody.

[Christian Miller]

Thank you for saying that. I've heard it so many times online that it's like a broken mantra. AFAIC, you can't play bebop on (acoustic, not Rhodes!) piano in the traditional way without constantly going way down there. Sometimes even staying down there! It's a skill that transfers to other areas in life as well.

It's probably important to restate, just as a great example of how much dogma can be perpetuated without really being true in practice.

I don't have much to add to the theory of drop-2, drop-3, &c. voicings: I've known about them since a kid doing, you know, music theory exercises independent of any instrument, and reading books on arranging a long time ago, but with my keyboardist hat on (pianos, Hammond organ), I've never consciously been aware of mechanically working them out. Yes, the term comes up in some of those "master jazz piano in five hundred pages!" books, but I'm not even going to go there.

In fact, it's only since getting back into guitar that I've heard these terms as frequently.

To me, the voicings I acquire for comping (I don't do chord-melody at all, just "regular" jazz, not meant to be insulting to masters at solo guitar style at all) either are copped straight from Grant Green, Wes, and so many others, or something I think about a bit and try to play.

But at a kind of theoretical level, when trying to figure out something nice, on like a dom7 chord, I'll think, "yeah, I want the 13 close to the top, and try to put a 'butter' note that fits the melody way up top, don't need the fifth unless it's augmented, don't want the root, unless it's the top note and I suck so hard, I don't want to mute any strings with the fretting hand, so, three notes to play with, and if I can squeeze a fourth note in there easily, add that!"

That's my simpleton approach. Want the Third, the Seventh, the 13, some alteration of the 9th, ideally all four. Occasionally a chord emerges that I can actually play without too much effort without trying to force my fingers into weird places. All on the top strings, always. It's just a matter of a happy accident if I can invert the chord so a "nice" note ends up on top that is close to the melody.

TBH While I’ve shedded a fair bit of fingerboard harmony over the years, I come back to those voicings most of the time. I did a little function today and that’s most of what sounds right to me… not clever stuff. Maybe a little bit of Barry and the odd slightly modern voicing, but Just simple chords played with a bit of voice leading, grit and percussive rhythm.

That’s a style I really like, and Peter really showed me how good it can be, along with Barney (one of the all time great compers imo), Jim Hall and the other classic players. Cecil Alexander comps like that too. I find it refreshing and straightforward, not trying to be clever, just playing the music.

Sometimes chopping them down to a couple of notes. Sometimes the hip thing is missing out the 3rd as well. Just a seventh, or a seventh with ninth.

[rpjazzguitar]

If I'm playing quarter notes, Freddie style, there's an issue of unwanted strings vibrating.

I learned my first group of non-cowboy chords from an old big band guitarist. He wrote out what he called "muted string" chords, like 3x231x.
Typically, the first and fifth strings were muted.

Now that I'm playing big band regularly, the utility of these chords has become clear. Perhaps the chord voicing isn't absolutely optimal, but it does allow you to chunk away and get only the intended notes.

They can be analyzed as drop-n, although I have never thought about chords that way.

[Christian Miller]

Well when you look at the angle Freddie had his guitars, muting is pretty much obligatory…

[jackalGreen]

Yeah, that's the thing about finger-muting...it's extremely difficult (IMHO) for a beginner who's still trying to spread his or her fingers in unusual ways.

And that's a topic I've not seen addressed in many or any Utube videos explicitly.

I'd rather just play on the top/middle strings, and if what Wes is playing is too unwieldy, just drop the inconvenient note and keep going ahead.

Even octaves: yes, I know it's a different sound muting the middle string rather than just plucking the two strings that form the octave. But even though that's simple enough for a rube like me to do, I prefer the precision. Haven't put in the hours to be sure some open string is going to ring out, so, I do with what gets results all the time.

As long as it doesn't sound like somebody strumming "Darktown Strutters Ball" or whatever on a ukelele, that's hip enough for me. Flat nine on top, third and m7? Sounds good to me.

As well as that I don't *ever* want to hear the root of a chord in my voicings, unless it's played on top as a complement to the melody, as in a typical 7, +5 thing, or as some part of working chromatic lines on a static harmony, maybe.

However, I do understand swing-era music and idea of working R-3-7 voicings...it's just not what I like. Not trying to dismiss people who specialize in that style at all, and I myself came up as a stride/ragtime piano player before knowing how to read music, which is many times a lot simpler than Basie OT band.

AND to add on just a bit to what Christian Miller was saying, I think many people would be surprised if they actually transcribe Bill Evans's voicings, very often he is just playing a third and a seventh. You know, the guy who everyone associates with dense chords and clusters. Not necessarily! Whatever fits.

[jackalGreen]

I learned my first group of non-cowboy chords from an old big band guitarist. He wrote out what he called "muted string" chords, like 3x231x.
Typically, the first and fifth strings were muted.

This is getting off the track here, but I just picked up the Ibanez AF55 with T-I GB 14s (yes, that's my only guitar now....but I'm really just re-starting out on guitar, so that's what I use....only mod was strings and adding a cheap ebony bridge to replace the stock TOM)....that's a nice dom7 chord. I could play that all day. Just a nice 7 chord.

However, if you feel like humoring any fools, how are you muting the fifth string (the A string)? Maybe if you grab the low E string (the G note on bottom) with the thumb, but there's no more fingers left to mute with if you're using only fingers on the fretboard!

OTOH, for me, that's very easy to just grab with the fingers of the RH.

The first string...yes, I know how to mute that!

[rpjazzguitar]

I learned that voicing with the third finger on the low G. I mute the A almost automatically by letting the third finger lean on it a little. At the usual angle, it would be difficult not to mute it, at least for me.

My thumb joint doesn't work well for playing on the low strings, so I haven't explored that. If I could do it, I would.

[AaronMColeman]

My favourite major seventh voicing is a first inversion drop 2 and 4

x 7 9 x 8 8

It doesn’t sound anything like a maj7 probably because of the minor ninth between the B and C

Major sevenths are weird

All of music is weird. It turns out all chords are really just inversions of eachother and you can choose any of them and it'll sound good, but don't choose the wrong one, so maybe all I need is my trusty Cmaj7 maj7 is min7 is dom7 is dim7...and my head is exploding playing through the heads of the 25 simplest standards. I have enough work with jazz to last a few lifetimes, then maybe after a few lifetimes with guitar I'll dabble in piano.

Music theory feels like whenever I cross country skied, you get into the groove and feel like, ok this is good I can do this. Then you lose the groove and have no clue how you were in it in the first place. But I really love it.

[Christian Miller]

All of music is weird. It turns out all chords are really just inversions of eachother and you can choose any of them and it'll sound good, but don't choose the wrong one, so maybe all I need is my trusty Cmaj7 maj7 is min7 is dom7 is dim7...and my head is exploding playing through the heads of the 25 simplest standards. I have enough work with jazz to last a few lifetimes, then maybe after a few lifetimes with guitar I'll dabble in piano.

Music theory feels like whenever I cross country skied, you get into the groove and feel like, ok this is good I can do this. Then you lose the groove and have no clue how you were in it in the first place. But I really love it.

true, but this is something quite specific. Major seventh chords are substantially weirder than minor sevenths, dominant sevenths and minor sevenths in that they don’t invert as well (3rd inv being problematic) and they aren’t always a solid choice for harmonising their own chord tones unlike the others. They do not represent their chord quality in an unproblematic way. Otoh they are quite interesting for that reason.

[jackalGreen]

I learned that voicing with the third finger on the low G. I mute the A almost automatically by letting the third finger lean on it a little. At the usual angle, it would be difficult not to mute it, at least for me.

Necessary thanks for that to you.

Probably on my part unnecessary response, but I did do it that way.

Yeah, the fifth string practically mutes itself.

So, thanks for the lesson, cap'n. I'm extrapolating that fingerboard-muting is probably something one can do.

[Kirk Garrett]

I'm a leetle surprised you're familiar with Drop-2 voicings but not Drop-3.

Simple Drop-2 example:

Gm7: xx3333
C7: xx2313
FM7: xx2211

Simple Drop-3 example:

Gm7: 3x333x
C7: 3x231x
FM7: 1x221x

Ring a bell?

In seeing this, I just learned that I’ve been creating “my own” drop 2 voicings, without realizing it, by adapting Micky Baker’s stuff to the top four strings as part of my practice. How cool!

[AaronMColeman]

true, but this is something quite specific. Major seventh chords are substantially weirder than minor sevenths, dominant sevenths and minor sevenths in that they don’t invert as well (3rd inv being problematic) and they aren’t always a solid choice for harmonising their own chord tones unlike the others. They do not represent their chord quality in an unproblematic way. Otoh they are quite interesting for that reason.

That third maj7 inversion is labeled in my books by me as "least major sounding".