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hi, I’ve been playing with a big band since the beginning of the year. it a new band and we are all learning to lesser or greater degree and the leader is great. One thing I am struggling with is the tempo of some of the tunes. I’m ok sight reading the charts up to a bout 140-150 bpm, higher than this an it’s tough to keep up and I often loose my place in the form. Some of the faster numbers have 2 or even 4 chords to the bar. I’m playing three note voicing mostly but how else do tackle this? Is it ok to play only 1 or 2 chords per bar, if so which one. the first? I’m making progress but this is my biggest weakness at the moment and I know I have to work on it.
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04-25-2023 04:35 PM
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Join us in the month of rhythm guitar thread!!!
Originally Posted by Geospectrum
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Often when a chart shows 4 chords to the bar, those chords are closely related with small alterations. If you are playing 2 or 3 note shell voicings, those alterations will often not apply to any of the notes you are actually playing. I was taught long ago that from a rhythm guitarist’s point of view the chord names often tell you what not to play — b9 doesn’t mean you have to play the flat nine but warns you against playing a natural nine. And if you are playing a 3-7 shell then you aren ‘t playing any kind of nine. So you have a choice — play the shell or play the voice movement indicated by the chord symbols. At fast tempos you likely can’t do both. Less is often more in big band rhythm. The most important thing is to maintain the pulse. Originally Posted by Geospectrum
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Show us a chart (or perhaps start with just a passage) you're struggling with... Originally Posted by Geospectrum
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Wasn’t there a thread on exactly this topic recently?
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See post #4 Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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World's Collide Originally Posted by Geospectrum
I'm not replying so much to the OP or other players who have an orchestra chair, but to share dialogue with players like myself without access to a music scene and are trying to learn the ropes, especially the new recruits. As the OP said, for fast numbers, start ditching notes. Those big, lush Hollywood chords were cultivated for ballads, torch songs, confessionals, and sentimental warbling. With most of Bird's tunes, a grip can't dwell long enough to be recognised, let alone establish the harmony. You may have been essential in a previous number, but when a blistering bebop head is called you're like a deer in the headlights, trying to look like you're earning your pay check. Or looking for the same door they opened for the banjo players who once ruled the stage. Ubiquity is best for fire hydrants. A man for all seasons can quickly get cold and wet.
Going To The Movies
I look at chord symbols as musical snapshots frozen in time. Just as the single frames of a film strip cannot convey all the information and you have to view the entire film strip to perceive the complete motion. Only written notation can tells us the entire story. Chord symbols are merely shortcuts. The more intimate we are with a chord chart, after playing it over time, the better we can deduce the plot. If musical notation presents us with the wide open gate to the city, chord symbols are more like a revolving door. They won't convey everything you need. Naturally, if you only play just the snap-shots, the guitar will sound disconnected, or musically abbreviated.
Who Shot MB?
I often think that the Real Book erased all the good that Mel Bay set out to do in his Modern Guitar Method. The Real Book chord symbols encapsulate each measure into 1 or 2 grips that one can then bang out and think that they're boppin'. But anyone who has studied Mel Bay's Method knows that there's much more going on in those bars for guitarists... Like malls and retail strips replacing your downtown haunts with Disneyland cutouts and urban sprawl, so much gets lost... Like comparing a digital CD with an analog recording - so clear, but where did the soul go?
Triads & Tribulations
I quietly left one band because the leader could not understand that the chord charts he had were put together on the internet by some amateur piano player in a trad band. I would have arranged them but he wouldn't suffer one iota of variance and you had to have the official book on the stand. Fair enough. They worked swell for piano banging, but not for swing guitar, or bass either. In our changes, as depicted in guitar books, the harmony is more suited to guitar comping than one would think. We can learn from pianists, but the language we speak is of a different dialect. There wasn't even a Real Book 2-5 as he preferred the IV-V7 every time and no extensions. In many respects, guitar chording is very sophisticated. A fine skill meant to lull the dancers into a vacation in Rhythm-Land. The pianist is expected to jar you now and then and spur you on to the next phrase, but guitar chording is meant to be smooth, and the changes imperceptible but for some top line you're selling.
Fleshing Out The Skeleton
For practice purposes, I reduce the changes to a I-V7 skeleton. Where I must, and my ear tells me, I slowly embellish and add the IV where demanded and the 2-5's. The back-cycling of VI7's and III7's and II7's, selections from the chromatic passing chords pallete (m7, o7, m7-5, aug, m9, m6, m11). Keeping it manageable with 1 or 2 chords per bar. Now you're in control of the grips and you can make it as difficult or easy as you like. But reducing the arrangement to a tonic-dominant skeleton, one can gain a fair perspective on what's REALLY required.
Where Are You Going, Anyway?
For each song, locate the root path of the changes on the fretboard or fingerboard. Use graph paper to plan out a path and memorise it for that tune. If you miss a chord, at least you'll have a root note under your fingers. One note can make the beat. Of course, correct the path as required, because the bass note is not always the root note when voicing inversions or substitutions. Knowing the root path can also help you avoid run-out at the nut.
Less Is More
Shrink the chords to the guide tone pairs (3 3b 7 7b), or guide tones plus root, or guide tones and a colour tone. Simply put, smaller chords are faster. So are less chords. If you can't wait for spring, Shell Chords with roots on the E and A string can do the job.
Take It EZ. Rely On Your Friends Indeed
There are a few shortcut subs like 1M7-1M6 instead of 1M7-6m7 or 2m7-2m6 instead of 2m7-57. Learn more useful inversions that work in tandem like these two so you can play more in one position without shifting much. But, not every chord is a must to play. Often, rhythm guitar is over-orchestrated. Especially if you're taking over the job of someone who's retired and their book is burgeoning with possibilities and experimentation. However, there must be beautiful voice leading in those charts you are being presented with. The trick is to play something reduced until you are up to speed. You can always make some of the changes deftly by simply adding a passing tone with the little finger at the right time.
Don't Play In The Traffic
As Jamey Aebersold tells us, often a G7-9 chord symbol on a chart is merely warning us not to play a G79 to avoid a clash. So, a plain G7 is often more than enough. Or a G7 followed by a Bo7. Let the horns frolic in the upper harmonies. Any guitarist mixing it up in that range is just headed for trouble. Stay in your lane. And you don't have much to sweat about anyway when there's a bassist behind you and a pianist beside you - except to stay the hell out of their way...
The greatest resource for jazz players of all stripes:
jamey_aebersold.pdf
FQBK-handbook.pdf (jazzbooks.com)
Regardless Of One's Musical Freedom, We Are All Slaves To The Rhythm
I played double bass in a Dixieland band with an electric guitarist once who was banging every note in those barre chords for all he was worth. I had to pare back as I couldn't hear myself. He eventually fell off the wagon because he couldn't stay in time with barre chords and it sounded so bad that he never came back. You can miss a note, but you can never play out of time.
Fail To Prepare - Prepare To Fail!
It's a skill and much practice is demanded. It's just not feasible to walk in the door and start playing 4 unique grips to the bar like Freddie Green. I would pay respect to the song and start off practicing I-V7 until I worked my way up to more dense changes. There are those among us who think that buying a guitar, getting a spit-shine, and showing up is all they have to do between cigarettes...
Get A New Grip
Where I'm located, there are no big band opportunities like in the UK or US, so I just play along with records. But to keep up with recordings, I change my fingering to leave out the bass notes and focus on the D, G and B strings. It's weird at first, because the fingers assign themselves differently, but the three notes of these partial chords, on these strings are faster movers and ranged to stay out of the way of your band neighbours. The fingering won't be the same as it was in the barre chord, but they're more efficient now. Just envision the E and A string roots in your mind. Your Root Path. Besides, there's a bass player behind you, eager to supply the bass notes for your chords.
It's Not A Trolley! We Pay You To Chunk Chunk Chunk, Not To Clang Clang Clang!
The guitarists' role in fast rhythm numbers is often just to play rhythm like a high-hat or scratch away like a pair of maracas. It's more of an energy transfer than anything else. How beautiful you make the harmony at that moment is dependent upon your skill as a guitarist. As long as you're moving a line through the changes and the band members are happy, you're hired. Miss beats and you're fired. I think the real reason there's a guitar in most big bands is to handle intros and serenade the diva in a ballad or to add some atmosphere like a Flamenco, Italian or Classical flair for the vocalists, or some Hollywood chords at the grand finale. Not every band highlights the guitarist the way that the Count Basie Band did with Freddie Green.
More People, Less Strings
Plectrum banjos, tuned CGBD, were more efficient for chunking. I rarely need the C string. Three strings are more than enough in orchestral work. That's why it's called an orchestra. The work is spread out among many and each member has less to worry about. I think when the economy demanded that big bands reduce to combos, that's when the big barre chords came into vogue. To fill up the room with sound to make up for all the musicians who got permanently side-lined. The trick to speed is reduction. Just as quietness is to rhythm. Light loads make for nimble fingers. Barre chords are mainly doubled notes, octave and fifths, anyway. Hardly a way to treat jazz.
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-01-2023 at 10:14 PM.
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Not to present myself as any kind of expert, but I have had the backup role in every ensemble I've ever been part of, and what I discovered was that the bigger the ensemble, the more my job is to keep time--and that often means keeping my harmonic role smaller and simpler. And practically speaking (as someone who might be learning a tune or arrangement on the fly), if I can't manage a change/grip at full gallop, I just keep the right hand going and mute with the left. This happens more than I'd like when my bop-centric friends set a fast tempo even on a familiar tune, but I learned long ago to ignore most of the extensions and stick to the shell chords I learned early on--the keyboard player is going to be occupying that territory anyway, and is not necessarily going to phrase the way I might. So I follow the drummer and bass player and reinforce the pulse. (Yeah, I know--a swing-rhythm guitarist has no real place in a boppish band. But they do enough dance-tempo tunes and ballads to make me not utterly excess to requirements.)
I've listened hard to big-band guitarists, and it's a rare recording that reveals a lot of harmonic movement or embellishment at fast tempos. In smaller ensembles, it's a different game, as one of my favorite Ruby Braff albums (Braff!), demonstrates--it lets me hear the difference between Freddie Green and Steve Jordan pretty clearly. And there's always Bucky, whose name on a personnel list guarantees I'll buy the record.
On ballads, there's some wiggle room, especially when the lead guitarist sings and the pianist backs off a bit--I have the time to anticipate what might fit in at the end of a phrase and add a modest embellishment.
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One of the things I've done fairly steadily over the years is playing bass in big bands. Originally Posted by StringNavigator
I refer to it as "forensic bass playing."
There is always an ideal part. My job is to use ears, knowledge of the tune, experience and the chart -- usually in that order -- to try to find and play that ideal part.
Why? Because for the old charts, the "Tuxedo Junction Book" with the ukelele chords, the chords are just wrong. For the newer charts, almost always the arranger is not a bassist and doesn't know how to work a bass. And for the recent charts, plenty of stuff that sounds hip on Finale playback is just awkward on the bandstand.
It works like this:
If the chart has a written out walking line, almost always there's a better one. The job is to figure out where I'm in unison with piano, guitar, bass trombone or baritone sax. In those spots (and sometimes elsewhere) we play the written part.
If the chart has slashes, a lot of the time there's something that the arranger wants that s/he has not expressed. Again, listen to the band -- starting the the drummer and then to whichever section has the backgrounds -- and grab some (but usually not all) of the rhythmic hits that propel the chart. Do that enough to push the song but not so much as to step on the arrangement.
And of course, do this while sight-reading.
That's a big part of the joy of big-band bass playing. It's probably a unique musical experience.
When it works, it's the fooking best.
A bunch of the better big-band playing I've had over the past thirty years can be traced back to the night that Mark Kleinhaut first brought me over to Dick Given's place. Thank you again, maestro.
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The OP is about playing when the tempo gets too fast for your usual stuff.
Some thoughts:
Big band guitar charts usually have slash marks, 4 to the bar, most often. This doesn't mean you have to play Freddie Green quarter notes, although sometimes that's the best thing you can play. An arranger told me that when he puts in slash marks he means for the guitarist to "comp appropriately". Plenty of freedom in that, but not much direction.
When the tempo gets too fast for Freddie style it might be because you can't make quarter notes sound good (just too many in too short a time) or it might be because you can't make the chord changes fast enough.
Let's consider the second situation. If you have time to think about or even practice the chart, you can always find a way to simplify the rapid passages. There's always some logic to the chord changes, which means that somewhere in there, there's a guide tone line that will work. First, I'll try to find two notes for each chord that don't require much movement. If I play two note chords, nobody complains.
The upper extensions/alterations are usually there to tell you what the horns are doing. If you can play them it's likely to sound good, but if you omit them it will sound okay, or better. What you don't want to do is conflict with them, so don't play a natural 9 against a b9, stuff like that.
If you don't have time to think about the chart (in both my big bands I'm often playing a chart I've never seen and barely have time to open on my stand), then you may have to lay out at times -- just keep counting so you don't lose your place. If you can get even a single note for each chord, do that, maybe preferably on the D string.
If you can play the changes, but you can't strum fast enough to sound good Freddie style, then you abandon strummed quarter notes. Typically you can do something like the Charleston rhythm (1, 2&), or half notes (maybe an eighth note ahead of the 1 and 3), or 2&-4, or even whole notes, usually on 4&. Which? You have to listen to the rest of the rhythm section and figure it out. I don't know what else to say about that, other than a lot of listening and experience playing.
I haven't mentioned the piano yet. That's the elephant in the room. All of the above is secondary. Primary, usually, is "coordinate with the piano" and, pianists often think of coordination as "I do whatever I feel like and you, guitarist, get to deal with it". So, you're trying to do all this stuff while also trying to contribute something and stay out of the pianist's way.
I do have a couple more thoughts about it.
1) Make sure you can hear the piano. In movies of big bands back in the day, the guitarist is usually seen set up right next to the open grand piano.
2) If the pianist is doing stick-and-jab comping, you can't do that. You have to do something that works with it. Often, that's playing a steady, and not very busy, pulse. Freddie works. So do anticipated whole notes or chicks on 2 and 4, depending on the tune.
3) A strong enough player can be so strong that the pianist will start making room -- or so I've heard.
One other thing comes to mind. If the rhythm section starts to fragment (like if the bassist isn't a strong enough player), then the guitarist can come to the rescue with Freddie style -- just being insistent, "HERE is the beat / HERE is the beat"Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 04-30-2023 at 03:33 PM.
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Played another Big Band Gig last night... actually made $ LOL. anyway, no piano. And some great working, road warrior players...and lots of new charts, great Bone player and friend... Mike Rinta brought in some originals... even more fun bunch of Thad Jones charts .... great audience and lots of sight reading, which is really why many of us take BB gigs.
Anyway... didn't record anything, I was scrambling between Gui. and Pn. parts. But there were lots of people taking vids... I'll try and get some. Pretty smokin band. Did take pic of couple of the charts... dark, small and slow to burnin.
Lot of fun...
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Looking forward to the recordings Reg !
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Thad only used guitar on his first album, so all the others are going to be piano/guitar (opt.). If the bass player can cut the bone soli on "Back Bone"- he can play! Originally Posted by Reg
I've been playing those Thad & Mel charts for over 40 years.
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Yea...I started working in BB's in the 70's . Still love those old Jones/Lewis charts. I used to also sub playing bass in a few BBs ...my hands would be beat. And yea still just play Pn. parts, when playing Guitar. I pretty much do that all the time anyway when no Pn. Anyway...It was fun just to see them again. Originally Posted by sgcim
I remember subbing on bass at a Jazz fest.... back in early 80's and having to hang, through Cherry Juice and some of the Funky Rock arrangements, those were fun times... 70's and 80's.
Nice to hear...You still gig with BB's. Love to hear or see Thanks
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Over the pandemic, I've written 60 arr. and compositions for two big bands I play with. One is so good that they can sight read sax solos I've transcribed and harmonized for the section by cats like Richie Cole, Stanley Turrentine, Gato Barbieri and others. Originally Posted by Reg
The other one is led by a guy who owns a full block of Manhattan real estate, so we just do gigs at his country club.
I test my stuff out with the second band, and then do the necessary corrections for the first band.
I'm trying to work out a deal with an arts organization I received a 5K grant from to play a concert for that supports new music, and pays for the recording of it. A lot of competition, but if they record it, I'll post it.
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I subbed in a new big band last night. 12 horns and 3 pc rhythm section (no keys, which is why I was there).
This isn't about the music, it's about some of the practical details.
As has happened before, there is a guitar book which has some of the tunes and a piano book which has all the tunes. So, I'm to look for the guitar chart first and, if there isn't one, find the piano chart.
The first thing I noticed is that the charts were all 8.5x11, with some obviously having been reduced from a larger format. Some of the print was tiny. I made a mental note to make an optometry appointment.
The charts were not taped.
So, finding a chart involved separating pages until I could see the number on the first page. The numbers went into the 500s, but a majority of the numbers weren't being used. So, I'd have to guess where to start, thumb through pages until I came to a number, which would then tell me which direction to search in, but not give me any hint about how far to go in the stack. The charts hadn't been used much so they were like right out of the copier and kind of adhering to each other.
The pages of each tune are numbered, but I have to make sure I've got all of them for the tune because they're not taped.
A number of times, the leader counted off the tune before I found the chart, so now I'm counting bars while looking for the chart, and joining in when I've finally gotten the chart spread out.
The leader was aware that the charts weren't taped and said not to bother.
I arrived with the Little Jazz amp and another I left in the car. It was loud enough although, unusually, I didn't care for the chordal sound I was getting. I don't know why. New earplugs?
Another issue is whether to bother with the guitar chart when there's a piano chart. Twice, there was a piano solo in the tune, but no indication of that in the guitar chart I was reading. So, I don't hear a soloist -- always a tip off that it might be you who's supposed to be soloing -- leading to me missing the first few bars and, also, not knowing when the solo is supposed to end except by hearing the band do something different. In the piano chart, all of that's marked.
Next time, I'm going to start with the piano chart and only go to the guitar chart if I can't read the piano chart for some reason. One of my other big bands has guitar charts with multiple notes on a staff in bass clef. I can decode them, but I can't sight read them.
Something I've noticed about the horn bands I've played in is that the band plays the tune and only occasionally will the leader have the band go over a portion of it -- and usually it's because of some egregious error in the horns, not anything about the rhythm section. A lot of the time, it's let's move on, no matter how imperfectly the tune was played.
In my small groups we go over things until they're right.
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I am so lucky to play (bass) in the Portland Jazz Orchestra, which I often describe as, "Sixteen people with music degrees and me."
Characteristically droll; good one. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But taking your statement at face value, you might want to check out generic (i.e. no-astigmatism) readers from the local drug-store. For $10-15 a +1.0 or 1.25 can help with reading and still leave you able to see across the band.
Yeah, sloppy leavers suck. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Let's make it worse: Big-band bass parts can go to seven or eight pages with the bassist playing every single beat. I always use two stands. Some of the PJO players use electronic books.
PJO rehearsals begin with the leader calling out the chart-numbers for the full rehearsal. It helps minimize chaos. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
My experience playing in big bands is that the better the band, the more musical detail they work on. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But I only play a couple of gigs a year with "The Tuxedo Junction Book." PJO plays some fairly challenging material -- several members are published big-band writers -- and we play a public concert in a hall every month. I don't think anybody wants to slop through that, and if they do, they find a Tuxedo Junction Book band and go enjoy that.
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Usually, band leaders are careful about the charts, although over time they get marked up and ratty. I was going to say they're meticulous, but that wouldn't be true. But, typically, everything is taped.
One of the bands sometimes calls the set's tunes at the beginning for rehearsals. Everybody does that for gigs.
Thanks for the tip about the readers -- I'm going to check that out.
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I'm up to 63 big band charts I've written since the pandemic, and i tape all my parts together meticulously. Anyone who doesn't tape them together is in for a lot of trouble from the guys in the bands I play with. They complain about every little thing, and now I'm proof reading each part instead of just clicking on the print thing, and then taping them up. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I use MuseScore, and all the jumps (D.S. Coda signs, repeats, etc.) aren't that noticeable, and the guys in the two bands I play with are giving me hell over stuff like that.
I don't understand why people here don't listen to the modern BB music more; it's not the corny Swing era crap anymore.
Listen to the cut on Sam's link to the Portland Jazz orchestra- that's great music!
I had a crazy rehearsal this week with one band I play with, who are rehearsing for a concert we're doing at a country club.
The leader wants to do the Rocky Theme, and there's a guitar solo, so I bought my Boss OD pedal and blasted away at it.
The keyboard player complained about the volume, so I told him he didn't complain about it when he played with a famous rock act years ago, with all the groupies and drugs at the Fillmore East and West, so why are you complaining about it now?
He said, "I didn't like it back then, either."
Then we did a chart of mine, and I was so busy proofreading the trumpet parts, that I inadvertently put them in the books that I refuse to lug around with me anymore.
We played it without any trumpets, and the leader (a sax player) thought it sounded so good, he's going to include it at the concert. They probably didn't even notice that there weren't any trumpets in it!
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I've noticed that some of the guys, well, quite a few of the guys I know who are prolific in producing charts, like to critique charts. Originally Posted by sgcim
Sometimes I think they like it better than playing the music. And, if you get two of them in the room at the same time, they may put on My Dinner With Andre Critiquing Charts.
And, occasionally, there are differences of opinion and I'll get complaints about the chart whichever way I do it.
To be fair, I've learned a lot from them, but I do get frustrated when the meaning of the symbols is completely clear but not the way they (or the Music Gods in general) prefer to see it. So they can get picky about changes that make no practical difference but which require that I redo the chart, print 6 copies in concert, one for Eb one for Bb, tape all 8, put them in the books and discard the previous version. Also make sure that the folders on the computer are fully up to date with the new version, or, pretty soon on a gig somebody won't have the right chart. More often, though, they're right but I resist because of all that printing and taping and it's just not the way I think.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-17-2023 at 05:09 AM.
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All the big box jazz nerds gangsta till the Maynard charts come out - and then they sound like a 15 year old who’s just learned the minor pentatonic.
mea most definitely culpa
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or the Dave Pell … Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Hey sam... that looks like cool BB. Sounds great.Thanks... nice to see.
yea...I haven't rehearsed with a band in years, Would be nice. But generally the 2 BB's I work with use their gigs for sight reading practice and place to see friends who are around etc... or teach too much. The steady weekly gigs move around a few different locations... which keeps a lot of different players in loop. Never know who'll show up.
We don't do the singer thing... (at least when we play out of my books) so we get to stretch out... lots of solos. Audiences still seem to dig the tunes. (I do sub for a working old school BB...)
Yea Rick that sounds way to normal...LOL We're at Ocean the next few sundays, Your always welcome.
Christian....?
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Appreciate the invite. I'll try to make it tomorrow. Originally Posted by Reg
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Looking for a "jazz box"
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