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So I am learning basic chord progressions.
I have the following in my notes. Shows minor chords and major chords and the diminished chords. I also recently started using some 7ths in the chord progression and it seems that when you start using 7ths that the Diatonic 5th chord is dominant? (Diatonic just means in the chord progression when I googled the word). (I been using a book from "Hal Leonard Music Theory for guitarist" as well as google to learn.
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 remember 7th is dim (as noted I guess if using 7ths or higher the 5th chord is dominant?)
I ii iii IV V vi vii
I first tried to google answer and found information here () however, it was was more advanced and a lot of words and meanings that made it very hard for me to follow. So was looking for something explained much simpler as I am just getting into theory.
I am basically trying to figure out the rules before start breaking them meaning a chord progression is comprised of this or that and follows this etc...
So far seems like with triads its all minor or major and the seventh note/chord in the progression is diminished. However once you get out of triads it changes the rules and now the fifth note/chord is dominant? and the seventh note chord is no longer diminished but instead is a minor 7th flat 5th (AKA: Half Diminished chord)????
I only know Major 9th, Minor 9th and Dominant 9th and I don't know if the chord progression changes once again for 9th chords so that is blank area for me.
just looking for basic rules here and understanding. Do we just need to keep building our chords from the diatonic notes of the key and whatever they make up is what you get? is that the basic rule? Meaning Key of C would have no sharps and flats and thus that is the real rule that is being followed and when you get a half diminished 7th that is the reason why and so the rule is not really so much about a specific note being diminished or dominant but more about following the key?
I guess if that is the case then at that point you can start looking into learning substitution? What order should I be learning my theory and what is next steps to learn sequentially? I don't have a problem playing by feel and what sounds good which is why the theory and rules is so interesting for me to explain what I do intuitively or just what we call sounds good.
Anyway sorry for the long post I am very analytical and wordy at times.
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04-19-2023 12:37 PM
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Welcome wilder7bc, ask this in the Theory section, these are just the kind of questions folks there like to discuss...wide range of theory depth.
So are the Theory section folks; it takes some analysis and plenty of words to ask, discuss, and answer questions. You will feel right at home there!
Originally Posted by wilder7bc
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This is a good reference from a traditional classical POV, no real difference in Jazz other than its not as finnicky about where particular chord tones resolve to - but you should learn that stuff anyway because the traditional resolutions sound good and get you away from playing campfire chords or moving the same drop 2 voicing up and down the neck
18. Seventh Chords – Fundamentals, Function, and Form
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Names are the same regardless of triads vs. seventh.
I chord - Tonic
II - Supertonic
III - Mediant
IV - Subdominant
V - Dominant
VI - Submediant
VII - Leading tone
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It’s alright no one in jazz edu has a clue about dim7 chords and they shuffle around and mutter under their breath when they are brought up and would rather substitute them with absolutely anything else. Apart from Barry Harris students of course.
(It must be true Ethan Iverson said it)
in General there are two main types of dim chord in jazz. The first is the leading tone dim (moving up a half step to the next chord) which is similar to the dominant 7b9 chord a major third lower. So C#o7 and A7b9 basically do the same thing; which is to say they function as secondary dominants, a type of chromatic chord that establishes the next chord as a sort of temporary key area.
So, for example
Cmaj7 C#o7 Dm7 D#o7 Em7
is similar to
Cmaj7 A7b9 Dm7 B7b9 Em7
Which is to say we are taking three chords in C major (Cmaj7, Dm7 and Em7) and sort of heightening or exaggerating them with these secondary dominant chords.
the other is the common tone diminished. The most common ones in jazz are the #IVo7 going to I and the biiio7 moving to either I (in first inversion) or iim7. These are bridging chords in that they represent a chromatic passing chord between two chords more than anything functional. They don’t relate to obvious secondary dominant moves like the leading tone diminished chords.
These are extremely common in old school standards, like gypsy jazz and old swing music.
So, C C/E Ebo7 Dm7 G7
or C C7 F F#o7 C
are two of the most common ones we see
For instance between C6/Am7 and F6/Dm7 the Co7/Ebo7/F#o7/Ao7 is a very smooth connection
C E G A
C Eb Gb A
C D F A
and in reverse
Thus is different from the more direction leading tone dim chords which go one way - up a half step - common tone dims can move both ways equally, so
C6 Co7 F/C Co7 C6
and
C/E Ebo7 Dm7 Ebo7 C/E
backwards and forwards all day long.
master these two applications and that’s 95% of it.
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The hidden passage to understand how harmony works is counterpoint. It takes time but it gives imho much deeper understanding of progressions and trains ears a lot. You have to start with just the bass and melody and only when you can do this well step up to 3rd voice and on.
Check this: Species Counterpoint - YouTube
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Harmony is a fairy tale told about counterpoint…
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I prefer urban legends about voice leading. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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When people are beginning, and they're NOT into 7th chords yet, instructors tend to present the diatonic chords of the major scale as triads. That is, just built on the root, 3rd and 5th of the scale note to which they apply. Thus the 7th degree triad appears as a diminished chord. In C, that would be B D F and would be called B diminished. Originally Posted by wilder7bc
As you get into 7th chords, which is adding one more note to each triad, that makes every chord into a 7th chord (Dm7, Em7, FM7, and so on). But when it gets to the 7th degree chord (of the scale) it turns the B diminished, BDF, into BDFA which unfortunately is a completely different kind of chord altogether called a minor 7th flat 5, written Bm7b5. (It's also called a half-diminished which makes it even more confusing than ever).
So remember the 7th chords go
CM7
Dm7
Em7
FM7
G7
Am7
Bm7b5
Really, a person beginning with simple major scale chords like major, minor and dominant seventh, shouldn't be bothered with diminished chords yet. They are in fact quite complex and have nothing to do with the major scale at all. So your confusion is completely understood. But what I've said is the answer. That should help.
That was quite funny :-)I am basically trying to figure out the rules before start breaking them
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You're doing a good job op sir.
Some quick pointers: diminished chords are like dominant chords that resolve stepwise. Dominant chords can also resolve stepwise but their main vanilla function is to resolve up a 4th or down a 5th.
A lot of harmony can be understood from the root movement. The root movement shows how the chord progression is functioning. When you get into advanced playing, there is more going on, but at the beginning stages there is nothing wrong with understanding the harmony like the point of view of a bassist.
Remember that there are 2 sides to the coin: if something sounds good, or if it is theoretically sound / has a theoretical explanation. Almost everything can be explained theoretically. So if you approach things by trying to intuit how it sounds or the theoretical explanation there's no reason to ever be confused or to go wrong.
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The following is merely a "Cheat-Sheet" for the OP to use when things become overwhelming. You have to keep at it. It's meant only to show you what you're in for as you cannot possible digest this info in one day. The hardest part of learning something new is to learn what you need to learn.
Your first step is to memorise the Cycle of Thirds in order: CEGBDFACEGB... It's our musical alphabet. With it we can Chord-Spell. Chords are built in thirds.
The C major triad is CEG or 135. The CM79 seventh chord is CEGBD or 1357. The G79 is GBDFA or 1 3 5 7b 9.
All of these are Seventh Chords. Only the G79 is both a seventh chord AND a Dominant Seventh Chord because it has a 7b AND is built in thirds on the fifth degree of the C Major Scale. CDEFG/12345.
Seventh chords are triads with the next third added. The Dominant Seventh Chord is the seventh chord built on the dominant degree of the scale, that is V7. The CM7 is a seventh chord, but not a Dominant Seventh.
Memorise the Scale Degrees: CDEFGAB or 1234567 or I II III IV V VI VII.
(The Roman Numerals are written in upper case IV for Major and lower case iv for minor.)
Each scale degree has it's own Chord Quality:
1M7 2m7 3m7 4M7 57 6m7 7m7-5
Each scale degree has it's own name.
I Tonic
II Super-Tonic
III Mediant
IV Sub-Dominant
V Dominant (This the only Dominant Seventh. It leads to the Tonic.)
VI Sub-Mediant
VII Sub-Tonic or Leading Tone
Below is one way to show the building up of the Diatonic Chords on the Major Scale Degrees in thirds.
The bottom row is the C Major Scale(CDEFGABC). Each column is built up in thirds from this C Major Scale.
ABCDEFGA
FGABCDEF
DEFGABCD
BCDEFGAB
GABCDEFG
EFGABCDE
CDEFGABC
Column 1 is CEGBDFA or 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 or CM791113 or CM913 or C Ionian.
Column 2 is DFACEGB or 1 3b 5 7b 9 11 13 or Dm791113 or Dm913 or D Dorian.
Column 3 is EGBDFAC or 1 3b 5 7b 9b 11 13b or Em7-911-13 or Em7-9 or E Phrygian.
Column 4 is FACEGBD or 1 3 5 7 9 11# 13 or FM79+1113 or FM913 or F Lydian.
Column 5 is GBDFACE or 1 3 5 7b 9 11 13 or G791113 or G913 or G Mixolydian.
Column 6 is ACEGBDF or 1 3b 5 7b 9 11 13b or Am7911-13 or Am9 or A Aeolian.
Column 7 is BDFACEG or 1 3b 5b 7b 9b 11 13b or Bm7-5 or B Locrian.
(Try to ignore the 11th for now. As for Phrygian, just use E7 or Em7.)
These rows and columns illustrate how chords are built on scales in thirds on scales. Thirds is simply skipping every second note. And memorise the seven degrees of the scale to know what Dominant Seventh really means (V7).
Obviously, Harmony cannot be understood in one day. Buy a small harmony book. They're usually thin and inexpensive.
At the very least, this post will show you what you have to research, and perhaps see the difference between a seventh chord and a dominant seventh chord. I've learned that music, like engineering or doctoring or lawyering is not for everyone. And knowing this stuff will not make you into a jazz guitarist. The most renown jazz guitarists of the 20th century were not professors of harmony. They listened and learned, picking solos off of recordings and mixed & matched the licks in their trick bag until they could "speak" them fluently on their instrument.
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 04-21-2023 at 11:30 AM.
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"Diatonic" means that the chord is within the scale of the particular key. (do-re-mi...) Originally Posted by wilder7bc
If it's not diatonic, it could be chromatic, enharmonic (original meaning) or possibly atonal depending on context.
These definitions are of fundamental importance in music.
For example; A traditional harmonica is diatonic in a fixed key, meaning that if you like to blow tunes in different keys you would need a set of harmonicas in different keys. A chromatic harmonica on the other hand got all the semi notes, meaning it could be played in different keys. Every harmonica is also enharmonic in the sense you could form micro notes in-between semi steps.
A guitar is a chromatic instrument that can play in any key in standard tuning. It's also an enharmonic instrument because it's possible to bend micro notes (and also that the same enharmonic note fretted on different strings sounds different). But when we consider open strings, open tunings and the use of capo daster the guitar would be biased to certain keys and be used similar to a diatonic instrument.
When we talk harmony in jazz, we are almost exclusively referring to tonal harmony based on the seven diatonic modes. Tonal harmony depends on the idea that the music got a home base, a key.
A chromatic scale contains semi notes some of which are outside and dissonant to the diatonic key. It could be used in tonal harmony to create an effect, a color, a passage or a flow. Similarly, a chromatic chord outside the key is non-diatonic and could be used as a passing chord or a color (common in jazz).
A deliberate change of key in the middle of a progression is called a modulation. We go from one diatonic key to another diatonic key. It doesn't mean that the music is atonal, chromatic or non-diatonic, it just means that we're changing the tonal key centre. Modulations typically follow a certain principle and could for example be of chromatic type, common tone type, sequential type etc.
If the music doesn't have obvious tonal key centers, it means it doesn't follow the basic rules of tonal harmony and therefore could be seen as non-diatonic. It still doesn't mean it necessarily would be regarded as atonal, because atonal harmony got other rules. (Remember that in order to break the rules you first have to learn them). A non-diatonic chord is called a substitution only as long it's based on an educated deliberate decision, otherwise it's just the wrong chord, plain and simple.
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The 5th note in the scale (do-re-mi...) is considered dominant because of its effect on tonality. Basically when on the 5th, you're a long way from home and the music strives back to its base, the key. Music tend to strive for a resolution, a cadence, resolving the dominant back to it's tonal center, the key. Originally Posted by wilder7bc
The diatonic 5th chord ("V7") is based on the mixolydian mode that got a minor 7. It's a dominant chord that wants to resolve back to the Tonic, for example in the key of C; G7 (V7) resolves to C7M (I).
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The 5th is always dominant regardless of the 3rd being major or minor. Originally Posted by wilder7bc
The half diminished chord is based on the Locrian mode. It got a minor 3rd, a minor 7 and a diminished 5th. In the key of C; Bm7-5. This chord is close in sound, and therefore sometimes substituted, with Bdim7.
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Here are some quotes from the OP.
Why are you writing him such long, technical, advanced replies? It's ridiculous.I am learning basic chord progressions.
I also recently started using some 7ths in the chord progression
I first tried to google answer and found information here. However, it was was more advanced and a lot of words and meanings that made it very hard for me to follow.
looking for something explained much simpler as I am just getting into theory
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I've thoroughly enjoyed the content of this thread. I've been playing 'jazz' tunes probably from the 20s to the 50s for just over 50 years. I guess you'd call it New Orleans, Gypsy,Trad and Main Stream jazz. It's mostly been on bass but also a substantial amount on guitar. It's great, at last, to know what I've been doing all these years.
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"Do we just need to keep building chords from the diatonic notes of the key and whatever they make up is what you get?"
- This is the basis of Diatonic Music... The Harmonised Major Scale, and don't forget the Harmonised Relative Harmonic Minor Scale. Look to the Cycle of Fifths to find it: CM/Am, GM/Em, DM/Bm, ... Three steps back!
"Is that the basic rule? The Key of C would have no sharps and flats and thus that is the real rule that is being followed and when you get a half diminished 7th that is the reason why and so the rule is not really so much about a specific note being diminished or dominant but more about following the key?"
- The NOTES of the scale are never referred to as being diminished or dominant. It's the FIFTH DEGREE of the Harmonised Scale (one with chords built on it) that is the DOMINANT DEGREE. DIMINISHED refers to a chord quality.
"I guess if that is the case then at that point you can start looking into learning substitution?"
- You're not yet prepared yet for Chord Substitutions. Learn to Chord-Spell with the Cycle of Thirds CEGBDFACEG.... In the cycle, the upper structure of G7-9 [GBDFAb] is BDFAb. BDFAb spells a Dim7th o7 chord. So, you can substitute Bo7 for G7-9.
Likewise you may sub a Dm6 [DFAB] or Bm7-5 [BDFA] for G79 [GBDFA]: GBDFA = BDFA = DFAB.
Notice that the root of G79 is the odd man out. That's fine. Four notes out of Five works. Just omit the G.
Of course, if one has not tried this sub, then they shouldn't be talking about it.
Another is CM6 [CEGA] = Am7 [ACEG]. This sub can keep your grips within position.
There are many other subs that rely on common tones. In triads:
I CEG = iii EGB = vi ACE,
ii DFA = IV FAC,
V GBD = vii BDF.
You need to be able to read the text of your harmony book without getting the terms like NOTE confused with DEGREE or QUALITY. There should be a glossary of musical terms that you can access in the appendix of a good book. Memorise the basics before tearing into chord substitutions.
Learning the jazz standards will teach one much about how it all works. The knowledge is readily assimilated as you learn songs. That's the goal. Not theory, but practice. Theory comes later. War is theory and coffee for Generals, but it's muck up to the ears for an enlisted soldier. To know what you are talking about, you have to visit the field... Do a Recky... Learn the Jazz Standards. It's a tradition you can follow. Breaking rules is poetic bullshee. Jazz innovators, like Miles Davis, spent decades playing jazz standards. Following the tradition. The only time a tyro breaks rules are when they make mistakes.
Knowledge is readily found when the need to figure out what you are doing becomes so great that you bust your brain cells in a library so that you don't waste any more wood or you get tired of being lost because you don't know how to use your compass. You will never learn the theory BEFORE the task. The need fuels the search. No one starts a fire on a nice day. It's too much work. But a cold morning will spur one to jump up early and look for firewood. That's the difference between a dilletante and a Boss. Theory vs. Praxis. Just play the tunes. Play one and spend five minute thinking about what happened. It's a journey... Many are called - Few are chosen.
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 04-21-2023 at 01:15 PM.
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Lots of good info in this thread. Here's a very simple way to look at it. Originally Posted by wilder7bc
Find a piano. Ignore the black keys. Start with middle C. Then skip a white key (remember, you're ignoring black keys) and play the next note. That's E. Skip another white key and play the next note, which is G. Play all three at the same time. That's a Cmajor triad.
Now, do the same thing, but instead of starting on C, you start on D. Skip, note, skip, note. Every other note. D F A. Dminor triad.
Same thing, but start on E. Eminor triad. Keep going all the way to starting on B. B D F -- B diminished triad.
Then, go back to the beginning and add a fourth note. Skip yet another white key and play the next note. You get C E G B. Cmaj7 chord. Start on D and you get Dm7. The rest are Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5. They're all built using the notes of the C major scale (all the white keys and none of the black keys) but they sound and function different in music. That fourth note is a seventh. These are heard all the time in jazz.
This is called tertiary harmony because it involves every third note (the starting note is counted as 1)
Now, here's the payoff. These 7 chords fall into 2 categories. Type I is Cmaj7 Em7 Am7. (It's another post, but you might include Gmaj7 in that group). Type II is Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 (not a typo, Am7 works in either category) and Bm7b5. Consider, for jazz, all the chords in a category to be interchangeable.
This is the way Warren Nunes taught it.
There are other ways to think about it, but this does work.
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Ok - I’ll boil down what I said to something very simple.
Get away from the forum and the theory books for a bit. Learn songs - learn a lot of old songs with dim chords in. Look at the way the dim chords behave.
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Very boring chord specially if you play diminished on it.
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