The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Hi!

    Here is Bach-style voicings using only tonic, subdominant and dominant. I personally love this kind of voicings and use them frequently.



    Cheers, Mikko

    Lähetetty minun SM-A035G laitteesta Tapatalkilla

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hey Mikko - you should check out the Rule of the Octave if you haven't already. I think that would be right up your street.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Hey Mikko - you should check out the Rule of the Octave if you haven't already. I think that would be right up your street.
    +1

  5. #4

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    Gradus ad Parnassum anyone?)

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Gradus ad Parnassum anyone?)
    No thank you, I’m trying to give them up ;-)

  7. #6

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    My somewhat sadistic counterpoint prof had us read it. Tested on it.
    A very particular form of sadism on his part.
    How about about a round of Praetorius? He made us read that too.?

  8. #7

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    Beautiful

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    My somewhat sadistic counterpoint prof had us read it. Tested on it.
    A very particular form of sadism on his part.
    How about about a round of Praetorius? He made us read that too.?
    Yeah, Fux is cringe bro

    Bach may have had that shit on his bookshelf but there’s apparently no evidence he used it according to Derek Remes iirc. There is a a treatise though that is meant to be similar to Bach’s teaching… I’ll have to track it down the name because it had gone out of daddy’s sponge brain. Bach liked his students to work on harmonising chorales in four or more voices with special attention to correct counterpoint, quelle surprise.

    I would imagine JS was very familiar with Praetorius. Not looked into it myself.

    (I am sort of half joking, but Peter Schubert made the interesting point that we think of Fux being a codification of Palestrina’s style but actually it’s quite different. I have it on my bookshelf and should probs dip into it again at some point.)

  10. #9

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    Thanks liars, nice)
    My first classical teacher and her husband both profs in a small college did a duet veraion of the Vitoria O Magnum. Just beautiful. Wish i had a file of that.

  11. #10

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    Speaking of correct counterpoint, open triads are more of an issue than closed because you can also get consecutive fifths in the middle voices (the Italian school was more relaxed but you bet Bach was a stickler). You might want to mix up sonorities as much as you can.

    Consecutive root position or first inversion triads are a danger area here, eg F to G. so you get F6 to G (or C/E F Dm/F G in three vocies) and often G G/F descending are Rule of the Octave standbys (incidentally CPE Bach wrote out a bunch of ROs in his book that go from simple to really complex. Worth a look if you can read figures and at some point I’ll translate them into guitar language.)

    You can also use suspensions (such as 7-6) to avoid consecutives. (eg Fmaj7 Dm/F Em C/E Dm7 Bo/D Cmaj7 Am/C etc with the seventh chords voiced as shells and the triads open.)

  12. #11

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    CM: IMHO Bach followed the similar path as we do in jazz… get the basics under your fingers and then soar above them.
    Musicologists have spent centuries trying to codify what the old fellow was up to. And by contemporary accounts he just sat at the organ and played. Four voice improv.
    “if you stood all the composers of classical music on on one side of the hall of music, and Bach on the other, they still would not equal the universal mind and heart of Sebastian Bach. He lived and felt everything.” Virgil Fox, organist.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    CM: IMHO Bach followed the similar path as we do in jazz… get the basics under your fingers and then soar above them.
    Musicologists have spent centuries trying to codify what the old fellow was up to. And by contemporary accounts he just sat at the organ and played. Four voice improv.
    “if you stood all the composers of classical music on on one side of the hall of music, and Bach on the other, they still would not equal the universal mind and heart of Sebastian Bach. He lived and felt everything.” Virgil Fox, organist.
    very similar in some ways! He taught Composition from basslines and reharmonisation of chorales… chorales were his standards… lot of bebop licks in his music haha

  14. #13

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    Nothing wrong with Fux. I went through a good part of his book.

    Many people don't like it as it's not modern enough which is a fair point when it comes to jazz or;

    Rule 1: If it sounds good it is good
    Rule 2: See rule 1

    Anyhow once you've gone down the counterpoint route, which is essential, then partimento and rule of the octave is actually very liberating despite the rules that they contain

    Am enjoying the learning process anyway.....

    As for Bach. I have some of his chorales down at a slow tempo but more play time needed.

    I also must revisit my old Bach exam pieces some day. There aren't enough hours in the day.

  15. #14

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    Yup! Many of the “big” organ prelude and fugues have resolutions to tonic of a 7 9
    to 7 b9. (Em, Dorian, Gm and GM, CM.). Sorry, its home for me)))
    youre spot on, his mastery of figured bass is breathtaking. As evidenced yes by the chorals.
    Half step motion. Key to Bach, key to jazz.
    Simple after 50 years of study ?

  16. #15

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    Christian do you have a set version of RO? Maybe using the Fenaroli scale?

    Edit: In 4 part voicings
    Last edited by Liarspoker; 04-03-2023 at 04:15 PM.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Christian do you have a set version of RO? Maybe using the Fenaroli scale?

    Edit: In 4 part voicings
    Not really, I try to vary things as much as possible atm. Fenaroli is fine, I remember arranging those for guitar early on

    but what id recommend now is taking the outer two voices from the three positions of the Fenaroli and playing those. Then you could add the middle voices as required and practicable.

    i get a lot of mileage out of tenths as well.

    I don’t do it in four voices. I feel that’s just chords on the guitar and I’ve done thirty years of that shit. What I want is counterpoint and free movement. So two or three voices seems best for that (even on keys apparently, I remember Barry saying once actually.) The Bachs were into four voices, but I think you can think in four voices and play three if that makes sense. Incomplete voicings work well if you understand the counterpoint. Or to flip it around, what we think of as ‘chords’ are extensions of two part counterpoint (I’m kind of more into the latter viewpoint Atm because it seems less familiar and more freeing.)

    the main thing is that the outer voices are good. So you want contrary motion, oblique or parallel by imperfect consonance and preferably, some melody!

    Tbh the Fenaroli RO is more of jumping off point. Now I tend to see it more as a whole range of options and sub units. In fact the RO and the cadence are really interlinked.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Yup! Many of the “big” organ prelude and fugues have resolutions to tonic of a 7 9
    to 7 b9. (Em, Dorian, Gm and GM, CM.). Sorry, its home for me)))
    youre spot on, his mastery of figured bass is breathtaking. As evidenced yes by the chorals.
    Half step motion. Key to Bach, key to jazz.
    Simple after 50 years of study ?
    ‘mi fa and Fa mi is all there is in music’ as the man himself said (semitones are always mi fa in old school solfeggio)

  19. #18

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    The way I kind of see RO is that you want to get from I to V to I usually by step and the choices you make depend on your style and obviously the melody. For a simple example to go from Am to E descending 1-b7-b6-5. This makes a complete musical sentence if you elide the descent to a Am/E Esus4 E Am cadence (candenza composto)

    Am Em/G Dm6/F E
    baroque (quite vanilla)

    Am G7-Em/G Fmaj7-Dm/F E7
    Corelli

    Am Em/G F7#11 E
    Gallant or ‘classical’ (ie Mozart etc)

    and Bach might go
    Am Am/G Am/F Am/E D#o7 E

    millions of examples

  20. #19

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    My current fave from Michael (similar to an RO)

    F6 F G7/F C/E Dm7 G7 C

    So the line D-C-B-C-C-B-C (cantizans?) oblique against a descending ‘prinner’ type bass F-E-D-C (you have the A-G-F-E in the third voice if you want it of course). So it’s parallel tenths or thirds with an oblique line. I like stuff like this god help me.

    Fenaroli RO position 1 is the same sort of thing. (Look closely at the figures in Book I, 1 as well Liar, he makes it clear.)

    be alive to invertible counterpoint! Tbh I can only do that in three voices before my brain melts.

  21. #20

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    Thanks for all that Christian.

    I was just asking about 4 voices as I had the Bach chorales on my mind.

    Nicola's RO examples are all in 3 voices but yeah, 2 voices are much easier but can sound thin.

    Bach chorales aren't all 4 voices as he drops voices before picking them up. Feneroli doubles a note in his position 1. Try playing that in 2 voices on the guitar

    I did a lot of work with Martin Taylor's Beyond Chord Melody book. He does a lot of work with 7ths, 10ths and 8va's which fits right in.

    I haven't heard any more about the gigs this week so I was back on the partimento bandwagon last night and started Feneroli Book I No. 1.

    Spread triads is actually an area which I need to work on. To paraphrase Mick Goodrick 'A good horse runs at the shadow of a whip.' (TAG).....

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    Thanks for all that Christian.

    I was just asking about 4 voices as I had the Bach chorales on my mind.

    Nicola's RO examples are all in 3 voices but yeah, 2 voices are much easier but can sound thin.

    Bach chorales aren't all 4 voices as he drops voices before picking them up. Feneroli doubles a note in his position 1. Try playing that in 2 voices on the guitar
    What’s wrong with that? You can have bare octaves
    esp at the beginning and ends of phrases .

    G-G
    A-F#
    B-G
    C-G
    D-F#
    E-G
    F#-A
    G-G
    perfectly good counterpoint, right? Back in the renaissance all cadences were to perfect intervals (octaves and fifths) and the baroque and classical traditions build on that. You can have a third in your last chord, but you generally want an octave in your melody and bass to have a sense of real finality. So I tend to finish my partimenti with that. In three voices maybe 1-3-8

    x 3 2 5 x x

    counterpoint not chords. Chordal thinking can be limiting. You don’t have to form full chords all the time, and can omit notes. For instance

    x 2 x 0 0 x
    x 3 5 2 x x
    x 5 4 2 x x
    x 5 2 5 x x
    3 x 5 4 x x

    Is a good way to voice lead a cadence (G/B C6 D D7 G) even though the C6 (6 5 chord) doesn’t have a 3rd.

    I did a lot of work with Martin Taylor's Beyond Chord Melody book. He does a lot of work with 7ths, 10ths and 8va's which fits right in.
    Yeah. I mean tenths particularly right? For instance You can go from a diatonic RO to something more Monk/stride thing by adding in passing dim chords. So there’s overlap.

    A lot of Bachs counterpoint is mixing up 3rds/10ths and 6ths/13th. It’s always safe

    I haven't heard any more about the gigs this week so I was back on the partimento bandwagon last night and started Feneroli Book I No. 1.
    yeah look at the first bar.

    You start on the octave - G in the melody. I also tend to end on G which is the a perfect authentic cadence. In two or even three voices you could end up on the unison/octave.

    Pay close attention, Fenaroli is a master of dropping hints in the figuring

    Spread triads is actually an area which I need to work on. To paraphrase Mick Goodrick 'A good horse runs at the shadow of a whip.' (TAG).....
    Spread triads play nice with shells and ‘drop 2s’… they are kind of my go to.

    Theres another triad voicing type I don’t have a name for … maybe someone can help? so

    x 2 x x 3 3

    really common in classical guitar. These work well with ‘drop 3s’ and you can do a spread shell voicing like

  23. #22

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    It's actually funny how RO is baroque's 3 chord trick.

    Today's 3 chord trick is the money maker especially if you add the vi.

    I had a student on Monday evenings and he's bring in a new song to learn every week. I found that most of them contained the magic 3 or 4 chords played similarly over and over again with maybe a brief departure for the bridge.

    Nothing much has changed between baroque principles and modern money maker chords. They just sound good.

    I wonder what the baroque patrons would make of Jimmy Page. He'd probably have been hung, drawn and quartered (A la MJF in Back to the Future). I'm expecting a No Quarter comments now

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    It's actually funny how RO is baroque's 3 chord trick.

    Today's 3 chord trick is the money maker especially if you add the vi.

    I had a student on Monday evenings and he's bring in a new song to learn every week. I found that most of them contained the magic 3 or 4 chords played similarly over and over again with maybe a brief departure for the bridge.

    Nothing much has changed between baroque principles and modern money maker chords. They just sound good

    I wonder what the baroque patrons would make of Jimmy Page. He'd probably have been hung, drawn and quartered (A la MJF in Back to the Future). I'm expecting a No Quarter comments now
    I think they would have questioned the elegance of his voice leading haha. Stairway is a lamento though.

    Although a joke, i think in the end that’s sort of the point. It is only three chords from the modern perspective but you need elegance and stylistic awareness to make them sound right (this Fenaroli gives you in the early stages) and not just like a guitar player busking. And those three chords are different in each manifestation… D/C to G/B does not sound like D/F# G or D G and each represents a different contrapuntal situation. You can’t have the third, F# on the top of D in the second example for example, but for the other two it’s great.

    As opposed to a guitar plonking down the shape without any thought to the context. Meanwhile the bass player is inverting the chord… tbf the way we write and play chords now makes it hard to think that way unless you TELL the bass player what to do (Metheny) - and then they ignore you (Jaco haha)

  25. #24

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    For sure Christian.

    I always have great fun showing students the difference between a 'folk' 3 finger open G chord and an 'Angus Young' open G(5) chord.

    They are always astounded by the difference. And of course D/F# to the G is a nice staple on rock music.

    Horses for courses.....

    I think that my ear definitely has more classical leanings than towards jazz though I do love the more advanced harmony too (as you know).

    Loving traveling these by roads anyway.

    When are you coming to the Guinness Jazz Festival again?

    Ps We have converted the attic

  26. #25

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    just playing around on piano and guitar with Fenaroli RO I reminded myself that the MAIN reason I don’t stick to four voices on the guitar is a unless I play quite stretchy fingerings I simply run out of room to put the inner voices in everything except first position.

    So for example second position G RO in open position, you either have to stretch up the B on the seventh fret top string, or transpose the bass down the octave half way through the scale (and even then you have to drop down to 3 voices with some of those chords. I.e.

    3 x 0 0 0 x
    X 0 4 2 1 x
    x 2 0 0 0 x getting a bit squeezy mate
    x 3 5 2 x x ah, nuts
    x 5 4 2 x x
    0 x 2 0 1 x we can make more room
    2 x 0 2 1 x
    3 x 0 0 0 x back to the start

    In fact, the main reason is the piano chords have a wider spread. Seven string guitar anyone?

    in contrast the RO works very nicely with four voices all the way on piano

    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    For sure Christian.

    I always have great fun showing students the difference between a 'folk' 3 finger open G chord and an 'Angus Young' open G(5) chord.
    Well it was actually AC/DC I was thinking of when I thought of the inverted chord thing. But if you are playing a power chord and the bass is playing the third - that sounds sweet. It’s a good composite voicing. I notice U2 (and Megadeth) got a lot of mileage out of letting the bass take the thirds too….

    They are always astounded by the difference. And of course D/F# to the G is a nice staple on rock music.

    Horses for courses.....

    I think that my ear definitely has more classical leanings than towards jazz though I do love the more advanced harmony too (as you know).
    I’m not sure exactly what advanced harmony is. It’s all hard! Tbh I’m with Stravinsky when he said ‘harmony is a bore. Counterpoint I can find interesting’. Spare me from stacking notes on bass notes haha. Well we all have to do it but it’s not music.

    It made me laugh when Beato said ‘you can’t play ii V I licks on this’ to Metheny.

    Bach-style voicings-a62827ea-2313-4c54-9e6e-3188c3bba077-jpeg

    I mean… functionally it’s a series of V-Is????? But he’s right - it also isn’t. It’s not a bop thing really, because the third (or seventh) in the bass of the dominant shifts the whole thing.

    Pat understands the outer counterpoint thing.. his melody on that B is a classic example of you were doing a chord melody arr all you’d need is the bass and the melody (maybe that’s why classical guitarists seem to like Pat so much haha)… you would use the same formula when realising something like that in a partimento.

    Loving traveling these by roads anyway.

    When are you coming to the Guinness Jazz Festival again?

    Ps We have converted the attic
    well if there’s some people I can hit up for gigs, that would be great!
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-04-2023 at 06:12 AM.