The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I'm wondering how other big band players deal with this.

    The guitar chart is often chord symbols and 4 slash marks per bar. (Rarely, do I see a written out rhythm.}

    That can suggest Freddie Green, four to the bar, comping.

    Or, OTOH, it could suggest you comp freely.

    In a situation where there's no piano, I think it works to mix Freddie with Free -- maybe emphasizing the latter. But, if there's a piano, you may want more Freddie and less Free, depending on what it takes to complement each other.

    Quite often I pull a chart out of a massive book having never seen the title or heard the tune. And, the band is going to read it once and move on. I open it and see, often, slash marks. I have to start Sparse or Freddie, hear what it sounds like, listen to the piano (bass is usually walking, but not always) and figure out a part.

    Thoughts? Experiences?

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  3. #2

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    In my big band experience, if there’s no piano the guitarist often gets handed the piano part, which is understandable because there are piano solos to cover but can otherwise be rather confining. I prefer the freedom of rhythmically interpreting the guitar part in the pianist’s absence. But on a Basie chart I’ll emphasize playing time except sometimes for intros and endings.

    When there is a pianist, which is more often the case, the guitarist’s main job is to meld with bass and drums, playing time, whether it is 4/4 rhythm like FG or playing in two or a Latin groove, whatever the chart calls for or the section agrees on. In steady bands with decent pianists I will often suggest that we alternate comping behind a soloist or vocalist, or that the guitar takes a solo that the score assigns to the piano. And it doesn’t hurt for one or the other instrument to lay out occasionally.

    In my experience having two chordal instruments attempting to comp simultaneously is rarely a good thing. And I try to keep in mind Jim Hall’s injunction: ‘Don’t just play something, sit there!’

  4. #3

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    Yea... I play in tons of different rhythm sections. Obviously after we've played a gig together, it's easy. And it depends on the book and who's directing. If the charts or who ever is running the gig is in one of the horn section.... 99 out of a 100 don't really understand how a rhythm section works anyway. So yea someone blankets and the other player plays accents or rhythmic chord patterns to help imply the targets and Form.

    I subbed for Rick at one of the BB's he works with.... last week. (he had another gig). Lot of old dudes (me included) some from the Buddy rich bands etc... good players. But was 5-5-5 ... a lot of horns... I knew most of the players from gigs etc... and have worked with the rhythm sectiob... We can all count... and all can play...LOL But with BB our job is to make the rest of the band sound good... make the charts work. It's sight reading, Erick had worked with the band.

    I rarely play straight time or chunk chunk, I don't like being a metronome LOL and that sound... personally sucks and shouldn't be needed... it should be implied. The old school thing is more for academic and rehearsal bands etc... not always, there are a few dance bands around. (they rehears)

    Anyway I know we help keep the band from getting too loud, and I do believe the audience enjoyed our playing. I know my playing wakes players up and get audiences going.

    Yea Rick thanks, was fun. The current BBs I work with generally play out of my books and don't rehearse... No piano ... I play all kinds of styles, and generally play what the chart implies... obviously unison sections need to work etc... I generally play like a piano, but can be much more rhythmic and percussive...and lock in. Try and make one feel where they are.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... I play in tons of different rhythm sections. Obviously after we've played a gig together, it's easy. And it depends on the book and who's directing. If the charts or who ever is running the gig is in one of the horn section.... 99 out of a 100 don't really understand how a rhythm section works anyway. So yea someone blankets and the other player plays accents or rhythmic chord patterns to help imply the targets and Form.

    I subbed for Rick at one of the BB's he works with.... last week. (he had another gig). Lot of old dudes (me included) some from the Buddy rich bands etc... good players. But was 5-5-5 ... a lot of horns... I knew most of the players from gigs etc... and have worked with the rhythm sectiob... We can all count... and all can play...LOL But with BB our job is to make the rest of the band sound good... make the charts work. It's sight reading, Erick had worked with the band.

    I rarely play straight time or chunk chunk, I don't like being a metronome LOL and that sound... personally sucks and shouldn't be needed... it should be implied. The old school thing is more for academic and rehearsal bands etc... not always, there are a few dance bands around. (they rehears)

    Anyway I know we help keep the band from getting too loud, and I do believe the audience enjoyed our playing. I know my playing wakes players up and get audiences going.

    Yea Rick thanks, was fun. The current BBs I work with generally play out of my books and don't rehearse... No piano ... I play all kinds of styles, and generally play what the chart implies... obviously unison sections need to work etc... I generally play like a piano, but can be much more rhythmic and percussive...and lock in. Try and make one feel where they are.
    Thanks for filling in. I got a glowing report back from the leader. If you know of anybody who recorded it please let me know. I'd love to hear your approach. That book has a lot more than straight 4/4 swing.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I'm wondering how other big band players deal with this.

    The guitar chart is often chord symbols and 4 slash marks per bar. (Rarely, do I see a written out rhythm.}

    That can suggest Freddie Green, four to the bar, comping.

    Or, OTOH, it could suggest you comp freely.

    In a situation where there's no piano, I think it works to mix Freddie with Free -- maybe emphasizing the latter. But, if there's a piano, you may want more Freddie and less Free, depending on what it takes to complement each other.

    Quite often I pull a chart out of a massive book having never seen the title or heard the tune. And, the band is going to read it once and move on. I open it and see, often, slash marks. I have to start Sparse or Freddie, hear what it sounds like, listen to the piano (bass is usually walking, but not always) and figure out a part.

    Thoughts? Experiences?
    if there’s no piano it’s up to you. I think it would sound a bit empty to do the Freddie thing in this context all the time. There are fills and solos in the music too for the piano .. and also written bits like riffs and intros and stuff so you’d need to read and play those.

    For stereotypical Basie etc big band material. Not all
    BB stuff is like that of course.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    if there’s no piano it’s up to you. I think it would sound a bit empty to do the Freddie thing in this context all the time. There are fills and solos in the music too for the piano .. and also written bits like riffs and intros and stuff so you’d need to read and play those.

    For stereotypical Basie etc big band material. Not all
    BB stuff is like that of course.
    In my bands there's always a piano book and there's usually a pianist, but not always.

    So, the guitarist has a choice of the piano chart vs the guitar chart.

    Solos are more likely to be in the piano book, but are sometimes mentioned in the guitar book.

    The piano charts are generally readable on guitar - just more info to look at and decide if you're going to play it or ignore it.

    I have the impression that the Basie fans want to hear Freddie style while others are more open to freer comping.

    I have come to appreciate that 4 slash marks don't have to mean 4 quarter note strums.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Thanks for filling in. I got a glowing report back from the leader. If you know of anybody who recorded it please let me know. I'd love to hear your approach. That book has a lot more than straight 4/4 swing.
    yea there were tunes in 2/4, 3/4, 6/8 and 5/4 not to mention the odd # of bars in sections and meter changes, was fun.

    Was also fun to see old friends... thanks again.

    One of the BBs I work with is going to start playing down in our area next month. When we see each other again, we can talk and your always welcome to stop by any gig... You could sit in with the BB for a couple tunes... but they're pretty spoiled with me and most of the charts are more modern and harmonically busy. I'll bring one of my bb pn/gui books to next gig you stop by and we can go through the tunes etc... Maybe pick out a few. I know you read well...and also play great... but as you know I play a lot...besides what's notated. LOL

    That old "play what's notated unless you can play something better", which usually is easy.

  9. #8
    Sure! I'd be interested in hearing the band, seeing the charts and watching/hearing how you approach the tunes.

    And, thanks for the kind words and helping out on Sunday.

  10. #9

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    I try to play what the band needs. Often, there is a piano player. If so, the pianist most of the times, can focus on the right hand part and I play the chords/comping part. Try not to double eachothers parts, that will make it "too much, muddy or confusing" Stay out eachothers way. I agree that 4 slashes often mean you can play another rythm than what is written. Without a pianist, it can be a bit tougher, especially intros and outros if the guitar part shows rests and the piano part is nowhere to be found.

  11. #10

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    yea.. I've subbed for different BB bands and they throw me pn book and many of the tunes aren't even there... I end up looking over bass players book and creating parts LOL To be fair... the tunes aren't that tough.

    And yes the art of staying out of each others way. I know many of the pianist I work with and if you've worked for a while you get to know different piano style and even different pianist harmonic styles etc... the only problems are when the players is just in their own world... it happens I have quit working with some BBs just for that reason LOL

    I've spent years getting rid of guitar player jokes...

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    yea.. I've subbed for different BB bands and they throw me pn book and many of the tunes aren't even there... I end up looking over bass players book and creating parts LOL To be fair... the tunes aren't that tough.

    And yes the art of staying out of each others way. I know many of the pianist I work with and if you've worked for a while you get to know different piano style and even different pianist harmonic styles etc... the only problems are when the players is just in their own world... it happens I have quit working with some BBs just for that reason LOL

    I've spent years getting rid of guitar player jokes...
    One of the big bands I play in didn't have a piano when I joined. That was a liberating experience.

    With a piano, the job feels like #1) Staying out the pianist's way and #2) Trying to find some way to contribute without violating #1.

    But, with no piano, there is complete freedom to listen to the arrangement and contribute however.

    Some pianists do leave room for the guitar. Others, not so much.

    Some of the older horn players are Basie/Green fans and want to hear Freddie style. Others want to hear comping behind their solos like small combo jazz.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

    Some of the older horn players are Basie/Green fans and want to hear Freddie style. Others want to hear comping behind their solos like small combo jazz.
    I try to give them what they’re looking for. This usually requires communicating with others in the rhythm section.

  14. #13

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    Yea... that is , or should be standard approach. Life in the rhythm sections.

    The give them what they want... I don't know, most just don't really know. I hate advice from horn players. I do know when you push the right buttons, they learn.