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Well it’s more a role thing. It’s rhythm guitar, not comping. The guitar is such a wide instrument in that it swaps roles from frontline, to harmonist, to percussion, to all three. That’s one reason I love it. If you are comping in a rhythm section with bass and drums your role is to provide a harmonic voice with some element of interaction etc.
When there is a piano already you become a percussion instrument. (Admitted you can do both.) high level FG stylists including the man himself often play a single note voice leading line that sits above the bass and adds a bit of sweetness and groove without cluttering things up for the piano. It’s not thumping away on 3 note voicings like people often say is FG style (because he’s the only jazz rhythm player they know haha), though that can work well if you know what you are doing. In general though pianists like this style when done well for mainstream jazz inc normie big band because it allows them to do their thing. Drummers seem to dig it too.
It’s a style thing? There are loads of factors here. If you are playing modern jazz in no particular style you have a lot more freedom. This style of jazz is edging close to what people sometimes call ‘traditional pop.’ Which has remained popular with the non-jazz listeners interestingly.
But even outside of big bands and so on the guitar had a defined role in jazz ensembles for a long time. It wasn’t always the sub piano; in fact it was often the subsitute drums for piano trios and so on…. I think a certain generation of players (post Bill Evans trio, post Jim Hall on the bridge) quietly edited it out of the histories because they thought it corny, but younger players seem to relish it. It’s not just a swing era thing; there’s a bop way to comp fours, for instance. The changing tides of fashion… incidentally Jim Halls rhythm playing is as amazing as his comping imo.
It’s also possible to play a hybrid style that combines elements.
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02-23-2023 02:54 PM
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Freddie did some small group recordings where you can hear him clearly. I don't hear that one note thing in them.
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he’s definitely doing it on the big band stuff. Check out the sessions with Joe Williams, he’s really audible in that. I’ll have another listen to the small band recordings it’s been a minute .
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
he here is with Barry harris. Super clear here in the first few minutes
his style is such that you hear a strum but if you listen carefully you’ll notice most of the time it’s only one pitch
James Chirillo knows this style as well as anyone
this stuff is a relatively recent discovery about FG’s playing specifically AFAIK no one else played this way until the last few years
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Several of the charts we play specifically have the instruction "play Freddie Green style" or "play like Freddie Green" on the guitar part. Privately I suspect what this actually means is not "play like Freddie Green" but "play in the style associated with Freddie Green as it is normally taught" which from reading around the subject seems to be something rather different.
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Where can I find these videos? Are they sprinkled through the forum posts, or are they all together somewhere? (If the answer to this is obvious, sorry. I'm new here.) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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You can expect those to mean straight fours. But if you can do the authentic FG thing it will sound good. The feel is big band swing and lots of guitar players did it with three note chords etc. that’s what I do (tried the one note thing but I feel it’s best on acoustic) Originally Posted by Ozymandias
as I understand those voicings come from George van Eps originally at least according to Jonathan Stout (campus five.)
You can hear me the one note thing here btw
not too terrible… stylistically this type of playing is very much 1950s mainstream/swing I would say, less pushed than 30s/40s stuff… that was a nice band, - mix of New York guys and some london players. I miss those guys, haven’t seen them for a while. Not the most exciting gig improvisation wise, it’s a subtle thing, but I do remember dancers being appreciative after the gig. People do notice…Last edited by Christian Miller; 02-23-2023 at 05:27 PM.
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Playing swing for dancers feels great.
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Search youtube for Reg523. There are a bunch. Don't hesitate to slow them down (easy to do with the gear icon). Originally Posted by pdawg
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Very nice indeed, I can see why you're proud of that. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Our band isn't aiming for that kind of retro period authenticity. We play some of the classics, including some more modern arrangements made for the likes of Buble etc and mix in swing arrangements of more contemporary stuff.
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Because I don't do linear solos, just about all my public playing has been as an accompanist or rhythm player. So I've spent a lot of time listening to recordings of the great backing guitarists--and I've also been able to observe a series of workshop teachers who both comp and chunk, especially in dance-band contexts, and often with keys and a singer in the band. I took away the usual wisdom: lock in with the bass and drums, stay out of the way of the keyboardist (unless it's Robert Redd, who makes space for the guitar), pare down the harmonic content--and that in a bigger ensemble groove/swing is more important than getting every bit of harmonic movement (say, those 4-chord bars*). I also read everything I could find on Freddie Green and marveled at the revelation that he could produce harmonic movement by emphasizing one note.
I think I've mentioned this before: there's a Ruby Braff CD (Braff!, I think) compiled from sessions with Green and Steve Jordan in which you don't need the liner notes to tell which guitarist is on a given track. That kind of playing, along with the early QHCF recordings and all the dance-band drummers, are what I have internalized. Now, bop is another creature altogether, and I hope to live long enough to it figure out.
BTW, Christian, that video of the Lindy Exchange is very much the kind of thing that formed my understanding of that mode of music: smallish ensemble, dancers, vocalist, swing.
* My teachers would suggest, when in doubt, mute the strings and chunk. They didn't have to resort to that, but it indicates their priorities.
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Speaking of the role of guitar in a bop ensemble--in this entry in the Wynton Marsalis Harvard lecture-series video, they play Monk's "Green Chimneys," and I watched what James Chirillo was doing. For a big chunk of it (specifically the swingy piano solo), it was nothing, then he seems to shadow the piano, with some nicely-placed offbeats during the return to the head. Very interesting.
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Last night I asked two big band arrangers what they expect from the guitarist when they write slash marks.
One, an 80 year old lifelong big band player and teacher (who is still active and plays great) looked uncomfortable. I had to break it down by asking him if he expected Freddie. He said that he specifies Freddie when he wants that. Then he said that he uses the slash marks to tell the guitarist how many beats for each chord.
The second arranger said that it simply tells the guitarist to "comp appropriately".
They both agreed that the guitarist's role is to stay out of the way of the piano - or maybe avoid conflict with the piano - while trying to contribute something.
Neither of them said anything about how the guitar should be different if there's no piano in the band.
My take-away was that the slashes tell the guitarist not to lay out and that they don't mean to play like Freddie, although you might.
Pretty basic stuff, but I'd never actually asked the question before.
The advice to be aware of the piano, lock with the bass/drums and drive the band seems pretty good.
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Tbh I think most post-bop big band arrangers don’t really think about the guitar much. Not universally true however…. I do remember seeing the Kenny Wheeler big band and for some reason it was mostly guitar solos that night… Kenny obviously liked the guitar a great deal and it often featured in his bands. On this occasion John Paricelli on a PRS… not exactly an old school vibe.
missed opportunity I feel. Every so often I come across a written part and I feel loved.
80 year old arrangers are too young to remember the swing era… they are modern musicians in this sense! Younger than Kenny Wheeler… so the concept of rhythm section is not going to be second testament Basie let alone first testament unless they are doing a pastiche or homage.
And of course loads of BB stuff is latin, straight 8’s pop-fusion etc. which is why you show up with a 335 unless you know it’s going to be old school in which case you don’t haha.
Btw here’s an obvious example of bop/post-bop big band with a guitar instead of piano (Chuck Wayne.) I presume people know these recordings?
Anyway, in general as I said, I would say Basie second testament stuff - we know the vibe. For other stuff it may obviously vary. Im terms of the op you still have to be able to see beyond the surface detail to understand a kchart and edit the changes where necessary.Last edited by Christian Miller; 02-28-2023 at 05:04 PM.
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“Freddy Green” is what guys who don’t know what they are talking about say when they are talking about big band guitar.
Someone beat me to the Jimmy C vid. Everything you need to know right there about playing big band swing guitar.
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One giveaway is when the guitar chart says "Piano" in print and "Guitar" in pencil. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Otoh, often enough, the guitar part has single note lines that make it, in effect, another horn. Now and then, you may see written out chordal passages (notes on staffs) which are actually playable as written.
I'm not sure how much "Post bop" big band I've actually played. Was the Buddy Rich band "post bop"?
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Oh of I get piano hastily scribbled out and guitar daubed in underneath in biro I feel celebrated! :-) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
yeah - all of it I think you will have played will be in modern post-bebop style. Most definitely buddy rich lol. I doubt you will have played anything in a historical BB style such as swing era because you will have known about it! Mostly that gig involves being told off.Otoh, often enough, the guitar part has single note lines that make it, in effect, another horn. Now and then, you may see written out chordal passages (notes on staffs) which are actually playable as written.
I'm not sure how much "Post bop" big band I've actually played. Was the Buddy Rich band "post bop"?
Everyone changed their time feel after bop. Really even the Basie second testament is technically post bop, as in it was after bop. Those recordings were made around the same time as Kind of Blue. So as old school as it was it reflected the trends of the time. Compare Basie before and after the war and it’s a different concept of swing.
obv most people think of ‘post bop’ as Joe Henderson etc, im not sure where to put Gil. Bop, maybe, but he feels more modern than that to me.
What I mean is a modern, post bebop rhythm section was with ride cymbal, legato walking bass etc. the old big bands in the 30s and 40s didn’t play that way. There was more a role for rhythm guitar in these rhythm sections and every band had one. After the war, FG was the main guy who still did it the old way, which is why he’s often the reference point for that style.
but again should note that it wasn’t like rhythm guitar faded away after this. Lots of bop players still played rhythm. Bop rhythm guitar is smoother. You hear rhythm on commercial big band stuff, crooners etc. The real watershed comes after the Bridge where Jim Hall really showed how the guitar could sub in for piano on a quartet, at least that’s how I’ve heard it told (Barney deserves credit too.)
In any case most people play in the modern style unless it’s a deliberately period style band. There are a few working in fact. That’s a different kettle of fish and players tend to be specialised and use specialised equipment. James Chirillo is a good example, as is JGO's own Jonathan Stout.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-01-2023 at 11:02 AM.
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I';m assuming when drummers are talking about Buddy they don't mean this stuff...
Which is a shame, because that stuff is KILLING. But much more old school. This is the rhythm section approach that was in vogue right up to the late 40s even. Buddy was also one of Bird's favourite drummers IIRC.
The evolution of rhythm sections is interesting. A lot of the drummers lived through huge changes in drumming style, and their styles changed. one more dramatically than Buddy. Philly Joe was old enough to remember the swing era, and even a time before hi-hats came in, let alone ride cymbals. He was still playing a 'sock cymbal' (a lo-hat if you like) in his early years.
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I've been working in BB's since the early 70's ... I'm working in one tonight. I wonder how many gigs there are for that old school thing. I' only work with one in SF area and they usually gig out of area... or some of the local formal event union gigs. They're work... and yea ... we're not the entertainment. And again playing in that style isn't difficult, you need to know the Book style etc...
The festival BB gigs are usually much more entertaining... very little of the old school dance band BS. We actually get to play. I played the Henderson band a few times... lots of room.
here's a page of a more modern style BB chart of old tune, the funny thing is I can get that same rhythmic feel that we associate with FG playing modern harmony etc... Same with later or earlier Basie tunes. Still love playing the Nestico and Nelson BB arrangements. I'll try and record a few tonight...
There are reasons why guitar players didn't get much in their parts and we still tend to think of the guitars as an added rhythm feature. You need comping skills... not working out parts... being able to play live and create and develop the part as it's played.
Some of the more modern and top shelf charts, Maria Schneider (Gil Evans connection) and Bob Mintser even some of the new people... Steven Feijke are cool... I'll post below.
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One of the first albums I ever bought was a Lionel Hampton collection, because Charlie Christian was listed as a sideman. He had a couple of short solos. When he wasn't soloing he played old fashioned quarter note chords, 4 to every bar, mixed pretty loud. I believe those recordings were from 1939 - 1941. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Oh of I get piano hastily scribbled out and guitar daubed in underneath in biro I feel celebrated! :-)
yeah - all of it I think you will have played will be in modern post-bebop style. Most definitely buddy rich lol. I doubt you will have played anything in a historical BB style such as swing era because you will have known about it! Mostly that gig involves being told off.
Everyone changed their time feel after bop. Really even the Basie second testament is technically post bop, as in it was after bop. Those recordings were made around the same time as Kind of Blue. So as old school as it was it reflected the trends of the time. Compare Basie before and after the war and it’s a different concept of swing.
obv most people think of ‘post bop’ as Joe Henderson etc, im not sure where to put Gil. Bop, maybe, but he feels more modern than that to me.
What I mean is a modern, post bebop rhythm section was with ride cymbal, legato walking bass etc. the old big bands in the 30s and 40s didn’t play that way. There was more a role for rhythm guitar in these rhythm sections and every band had one. After the war, FG was the main guy who still did it the old way, which is why he’s often the reference point for that style.
but again should note that it wasn’t like rhythm guitar faded away after this. Lots of bop players still played rhythm. Bop rhythm guitar is smoother. You hear rhythm on commercial big band stuff, crooners etc. The real watershed comes after the Bridge where Jim Hall really showed how the guitar could sub in for piano on a quartet, at least that’s how I’ve heard it told (Barney deserves credit too.)
In any case most people play in the modern style unless it’s a deliberately period style band. There are a few working in fact. That’s a different kettle of fish and players tend to be specialised and use specialised equipment. James Chirillo is a good example, as is JGO's own Jonathan Stout.
Not many years later, comping changed. Who were the pioneers? Oscar Moore maybe? The guitarists were around in the early bop days like Chuck Wayne? I'm wondering if there were some really popular recordings with the new style that everybody heard. Hard for me to imagine that a lot of people heard Chuck Wayne, but I don't know for sure. It may have started with piano comping, but again, I'd have to research it.
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Yes those are a classic example of small band swing. The rhythm section has that sound. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I have to confess my timeline is a little hazy here.Not many years later, comping changed. Who were the pioneers? Oscar Moore maybe? The guitarists were around in the early bop days like Chuck Wayne? I'm wondering if there were some really popular recordings with the new style that everybody heard. Hard for me to imagine that a lot of people heard Chuck Wayne, but I don't know for sure. It may have started with piano comping, but again, I'd have to research it.
Two things I know.
- guitarists continued to play rhythm throughout the bop era. This was most often heard on piano trio dates (with guitar) and big band dates.
Players at this point had a smoother style. It’s wasn’t the heavy swing chank any more but more like brush drums. The best players could almost sound like a trap set but with harmony. Billy Bean was mega at it.
- the Bridge kind of established the guitar as an alternative to piano (at least according to Bruce Forman.) I also feel Bill Evans was important in moving the piano trio towards the piano, bass, drums line up exclusively, though of course people had been working in that line up before. progressive pianists would record exclusively with this trio line up into the 60s, more harmonic freedom I guess? Jazz guitarists would focus on a pianistic style of comping.
in between those two … well there’s a lot … I feel this is a very incomplete account. I’m sure people comped before Jim Hall lol. Tal Farlow and Barney Kessel spring to mind.
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Herb Ellis used to mute the strings and strike them in rhythm - basically a simple percussion part with Oscar Peterson. I hear the same thing here, and for the same reason. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I found recordings by Oscar Moore (King Cole Trio) and Chuck Wayne (the tune that became Solar) from 1946. It's still 4 to the bar.
Julie is Her Name in 1956 with Barney sounds completely different.
A 1954 recording of Oscar P trio with Lester Young was 4 to the bar, sounding like Freddie.
The Bridge was 1962.
But, here's Tal with Red Norvo in 1950 and it's modern style.
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yea nice to here... but Tal sounds really straight in that recording. And couldn't really hear B Bean... they were both really straight, almost vanilla. Not knocking... just the sound and harmonic references etc...
I still think Tal was one of the players who started opening the doors... he had technique and pushed etc...
The more I hear other guitar players... the more I want to start comping thread. I'll get something from tonight and start posting examples tomorrow with slowed down examples of the most common Chord Patterns used during the last 20 or 30 years. The smaller parts... of the whole picture when comping.
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From these few recordings, I'd guess that 4 to the bar went out when bop tempo went in. Who wanted to play or hear 4 to the bar at 250bpm?
From there, the more modern style broadened to include slower tempos.
But for years, they overlapped.
In support of Reg's idea for a look at comping -- I've seen instructions (Cerrillo? sp?) for Freddie style, but I haven't seen much for how to comp in big band, with a piano, in a more modern style. The arrangers I just asked basically shrugged. "Comp appropriately".
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I think you are right about billy bean in that video I posted. I think he’s pretty much playing muted throughout. It’s a really nice way to play with a bass solo actually, really swings. Frees up the piano to use the left hand.
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Pasquale Grasso, bass and drums behind Samara Joy.
You can hear clearly, and sometimes see, the guitar fully functioning in the role more often seen filled by piano.
PG has all the chops one can imagine and yet falls in behind the vocal with simpler stuff that grooves great. Same when the bass solos.
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