The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Just do f flaming major 7th, keep it simple and melodic!

    The more you deviate from the original f maj 7th chord notes with the substitutions described above, the worse it will sound.
    The more you deviate from the original f maj 7th chord notes with the substitutions described above, the MORE JAZZ it will sound

    I'm being a bit facetious, but I think the OP is looking for chords that will give harmonic motion to the Bm7b5, and there are a myriad different ways to do that.

    To me I'd have to know the bigger picture of the whole tune. Taken in isolation it's hard to say that one thing will work more than anything else!

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    But then I realise that since Shorter, Henderson, McCoy etc, at some point you might wish to write your own rules based on what just sounds good to your own ears....?
    there’s a lot to be said for randomly choosing chords and then just keeping the ones you like.

    I know people might laugh to hear me say it, but there is such a thing as overthinking.

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Ya gotta try everything, you can't always tell how things will sound by how they look on paper (well, most of us can't). For example, if you take this little progression - Cmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 - Cmaj7 , sure, it's easy to say most of it falls by 5ths and resolves by semitone, but would you have come up with that if Coltrane hadn't? I studied counterpoint and Harmony as well as Atonal composition at uni for many years, but I still get confounded by why some things sound good and others don't. You think Jobim came up with the B section in GFI by using any kind of predictive theory?
    That's not what you asked. I suspect Jobim came up with some of his ideas because one of his teachers was a student of Schönberg. The theory of harmony isn't meant to be predictive and I have to hear things to know what they sound like.

    What you say confirms my opinion of how harmony and counterpoint are taught at music schools: it's passive knowledge. It's never really used. People studying classical music don't play from lead sheets and they rarely do a harmonic analysis because they want to play something on the guitar. If one really wants to grasp it, one has to use it.

    I believe alterations are most effective when used sparingly. I don't think in terms of alterations. The fewer you use, the more freedom you have when soloing.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Yeah, but what about F flamin' 7, or F# freakin'' m7 friggin' b5? Surely they are just as basic? Has anyone tried all the other options listed in #27? Not sure if I agree that they sound "worse"...

    Ya gotta try everything, you can't always tell how things will sound by how they look on paper (well, most of us can't). For example, if you take this little progression - Cmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - Abmaj7 - Dbmaj7 - Cmaj7 , sure, it's easy to say most of it falls by 5ths and resolves by semitone, but would you have come up with that if Coltrane hadn't? I studied counterpoint and Harmony as well as Atonal composition at uni for many years, but I still get confounded by why some things sound good and others don't. You think Jobim came up with the B section in GFI by using any kind of predictive theory?
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Why do you hate the blues Kong?
    Look, here is the flaming chord progression from the OP:

    A flaming minor, F(flaming X), B flaming m7b flaming 5, E flaming 7b9

    Diatonic chords in A flaming minor.
    So F flaming major 7th is the obvious chord here.

    This is like lesson flaming 1 of idiot's guide to Jazz theory, what on earth is wrong with you all today?!

  6. #55

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    Nice, but I prefer it in A friggin'.

  7. #56

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    This is what I think Christian Miller means when he is 'mad at theory'.....

  8. #57

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    Altering the dominant will create more tension and thus more of a sense of "motion" if you resolve to the tonic, but otherwise, generally speaking, you will have less of a sense of motion the more alterations you use. The reason is that extended chords, including sixths and sevenths, are inherently ambiguous. For example, C maj. 7 can be thought of as a combination of the C maj. triad and the E min. triad. If one uses a lot of alterations, what happens is that you get a kind of sense of the music "floating". Sometimes I'll think with compositions like this, that the music goes up and down, but it doesn't go anywhere.

  9. #58

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    Looking at it:

    am7, fMaj7, bm7flt5,e7

    this tune is basically blue bossa, but ( it it were in key of Am) that tune goes:

    am7, dm7, bm7flt5, e7.

    Fmaj7 and dm7 share 3 of the 4 chord notes, so basically the same chord....

    so if it works for one of the greatest jazz standards in the book, it works for this tune, whatever it is. Be gone with all these foul sounding random substitutions!!

  10. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Look, here is the flaming chord progression from the OP:

    A flaming minor, F(flaming X), B flaming m7b flaming 5, E flaming 7b9

    Diatonic chords in A flaming minor.
    So F flaming major 7th is the obvious chord here.

    This is like lesson flaming 1 of idiot's guide to Jazz theory, what on earth is wrong with you all today?!
    hehe, sounds like you're the one stuck on " lesson flaming 1 of idiot's guide to Jazz theory" , at least I'm trying to move on to lesson flaming 2 ...

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    hehe, sounds like you're the one stuck on " lesson flaming 1 of idiot's guide to Jazz theory" , at least I'm trying to move on to lesson flaming 2 ...
    Hahahaha, if lesson flaming 2 is entitled:

    'How to create a discordant cacophony" then yes!

  12. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    there’s a lot to be said for randomly choosing chords and then just keeping the ones you like.

    I know people might laugh to hear me say it, but there is such a thing as overthinking.
    Dunno about laugh, but yeah, made me chuckle!

  13. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Hahahaha, if lesson flaming 2 is entitled:

    'How to create a discordant cacophony" then yes!
    Nah, that be lesson 3 ...

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    discordant cacophony
    Oh, I like that! Can I use it as my new band name? "No Performance Tonight" hasn't been working out.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Hahahaha, if lesson flaming 2 is entitled:

    'How to create a discordant cacophony" then yes!
    what, like Bb king?

    Do you actually know what music sounds like?

  16. #65

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    Wait I’ve got it! King Kong learned jazz harmony from the great Hans


  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    what, like Bb king?

    Do you actually know what music sounds like?
    How does BB King come into this?

    (ps lets not forget that musical debate is fun, can be tongue in cheek etc etc)

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    How does BB King come into this?

    (ps lets not forget that musical debate is fun, can be tongue in cheek etc etc)
    actually I got it wrong! I was going to say the Thrill is Gone but realised on listening that it is actaully bVImaj7 in bar 9 so the diatonic option, which is ‘sweeter’ and less
    bluesy. I suppose BB always put the sweetness in the blues.

    Guess my guitar teacher got it wrong all those years ago (or my memory is fallible, no can’t be that.)

  19. #68

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    Here’s a good example. Big fat bVI7#11 in bar 9 of the form



    Also night train


    but that’s a major blues

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    actually I got it wrong! I was going to say the Thrill is Gone but realised on listening that it is a bVImaj7 in bar 9 so the diatonic option.
    Aside from a bit of theory related banter this just comes down to personal taste.

    So the beauty of jazz music for me is the way it is different to 'normal' music by the implied and subtle deviations from standard 'nursery rhyme' theory.

    Play Cmaj7th not Cmaj and you instantly get that added air of mystique and subtlety. The trick I think is to deviate enough from the nursery rhyme style enough, but not too much to make it hard on the ears.

    So I think each person has their own point on the nursery rhyme -> cacophony spectrum where they feel that music becomes too jarring. Mine I reckon is quite near the nursery rhyme side, if yours is further towards the cacophony side, no worries as long as you like the music.

  21. #70

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    Oh bloody Round Midnight another bVI7 party

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Aside from a bit of theory related banter this just comes down to personal taste.

    So the beauty of jazz music for me is the way it is different to 'normal' music by the implied and subtle deviations from standard 'nursery rhyme' theory.

    Play Cmaj7th not Cmaj and you instantly get that added air of mystique and subtlety. The trick I think is to deviate enough from the nursery rhyme style enough, but not too much to make it hard on the ears.

    So I think each person has their own point on the nursery rhyme -> cacophony spectrum where they feel that music becomes too jarring. Mine I reckon is quite near the nursery rhyme side, if yours is further towards the cacophony side, no worries as long as you like the music.
    haha!!

    I don’t see bVI7 as very complicated or out there really. It’s got the b5 blue note in it. Play

    x 6 5 6 x x
    x 5 4 5 x x
    3 5 5 3 x x

    Blues m8

    in fact isn’t there a song that goes like that? I think it’s a Clapton thing iirc.

    anyway it’s in a ton of standards.

  23. #72

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    Play

    x x 5 3 3 x
    x x 3 2 3 x
    x 6 5 6 x x
    x 5 4 2 3 x

    for a more classical vibe

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Play

    x x 5 3 3 x
    x x 3 2 3 x
    x 6 5 6 x x
    x 5 4 2 3 x

    for a more classical vibe
    sorry Christian, I think I'm missing your point, so Kong says: play the FMajor7th as the most obvious choice. Can you clarify fully for me what chord you are suggesting to play instead? ( sorry if you've done that already, may have got lost in all the posts ).

    Oh and my last post about nursery rhymes etc, that was more of a general philosophical comment than one against your suggested chord.

  25. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    sorry Christian, I think I'm missing your point, so Kong says: play the FMajor7th as the most obvious choice. Can you clarify fully for me what chord you are suggesting to play instead? ( sorry if you've done that already, may have got lost in all the posts ).

    Oh and my last post about nursery rhymes etc, that was more of a general philosophical comment than one against your suggested chord.
    F flamin' 7 - c'mon man, try and keep up!

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    F flamin' 7 - c'mon man, try and keep up!
    Cristian says flat 6 flaming 7th...
    that would be E 7th .... completely wrong, discordant flaming cocophany.

    F flaming 7th, not too bad, staying true to the F major vibe.