The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Just stumbled upon this chord by accident - never used one before, seems useable resolving to either maj or min. How do you guys get on with this chord?

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  3. #2

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    If you allow for the 5th, I've heard this chord; John McLaughlin album "The Inner Mounting Flame", the song Meeting of the Spirits. There is a 40 second intro, then he alternates between two chords (arpeggio) - the first of each pair is this chord.


    2xx020 F#7b9sus4
    3xx020 F#7b9sus4/G or Em6/G

    The 7b9sus4 in normal form does not seem to seek resolution. JMcL gives us a clue with the second chord, which is an "inversion" of the first without its root. That version has some resolutions, depending on how your hear resolution:

    It resolves to minor from...
    the b2 (resolving)
    the b3 (weakly resolving, sounds like an inversion)
    the b5 (weakly resolving, sounds like an inversion)
    the b6 (resolving)

    It resolves to major from...
    the b2 (resolving)
    the 5 (weirdly resolving, kind of oblique)
    the 7 (weirdly resolving, kind of oblique)

  4. #3

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    Yea... I'm old so I still use as Phrygian reference or access to MM the 2nd degree with that whole thing. Or even the Herbie thing... Dolphin Dance
    here's old vid I made for this forum years ago LOL it's silly but I think there was a theoretical analysis that went with it but who cares

  5. #4

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    I'll transpose it to G for readability.

    G7b9sus. That's G C D F Ab.

    I'll leave most of the theory to others. When I use those notes, I'm likely to be playing a 7susb9, often xx6533. Usually, I play it because it's in a chart, or as a melodic minor chord (see below).

    Those notes might be Bb13, rootless. (R) 3 5 b7 9 13.
    Rootless 9th chords are also m6 and m7b5. So it's also usable as Fm69 (F Ab C D G) and Dm7b5(add 11) (D F Ab C add G).

    The 7susb9 comes out of major scale harmony as the third degree of the scale. That is, G is the third degree of Eb. So this is a phrygian chord in Eb. TBH, that doesn't help me much. I ought to look into it.

    It's also used as the second degree in Fmelmin. Since all melmin chords are the same chord, per Mark Levine, you can use them interchangeably. So this G7b9sus is also Fminmaj7, Abmaj7#5 etc. Conversely, that group of notes could be substituting for any of the other melodic minor chords -- so it will resolve anywhere they were headed. I've found this concept to be very useful.

  6. #5

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    Assuming the 5th may be included (you can always do that if the 5th is not altered, right?)

    1 4 5 b7 b9

    if you re-root it from the b7

    b7 b9 1 4 5

    and covert that to scale degrees from the new root

    1 2 b3 5 6

    you get a pentatonic scale, e.g.:

    C D Eb G A

    which is the major pent made minor by just flatting the 3, but since there is no 7, it supports numerous scale interpretations.

    if you re-root it from the b9

    b9 1 4 5 b7

    and covert that to scale degrees from the new root

    1 3 b5 6 7

    you get a pentatonic scale, e.g.:

    C E Gb A B

    which I find is called "Mode 3" but nothing more, yet.

    If assume it is a third mode and wind it back to first mode I get

    A B C E G#

    Which re-rooted has the scale degrees

    1 2 b3 5 6

    Which is what we saw in the above inversion rooted from the b7 (of course, we are now three modes above that one)

    Maybe finding familiar scales that "interpret or express" these chords would suggest lines and harmonies that lead to resolutions.

    "Scale-Chord Theory" or SCT.
    Last edited by pauln; 09-27-2022 at 05:24 PM.

  7. #6

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    Pauln, I believe your last example

    1 3 b5 6 7

    Would be

    C E Gb A B (not Bb)

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    Pauln, I believe your last example

    1 3 b5 6 7

    Would be

    C E Gb A B (not Bb)
    Thanks, I fixed it and in looking for a name of the corrected b9 tonic inversion pent scale, I found it called "Mode 3" without any explanation; but that makes sense as the b9 is the "third" above the b7, but now I wonder what this b7 tonic inversion pent scale version is really called if modes of it have been officially named...?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Thanks, I fixed it and in looking for a name of the corrected b9 tonic inversion pent scale, I found it called "Mode 3" without any explanation; but that makes sense as the b9 is the "third" above the b7, but now I wonder what this b7 tonic inversion pent scale version is really called if modes of it have been officially named...?
    Haha! Fancy that - you've hit right on how I found this chord in the first place!

    To answer you question, this scale you mention has various names :

    Insen scale - Wikipedia

    The John Coltrane Pentatonic – The Practice of Practice

    It's one of my faves and can be used against Dom9, m6 and m7b5 among others.

    It can also be used for some alt dom sounds, just as a m7b5 played from the b7 degree of a dom chord yields the b9 and b13 tones.

    Now, if you play this m7b5 chord (say Fm7b5 over G7alt) and resolve to Cm, you can then play this same chord to sub for the V of the relative major (Eb maj), so in place of Bb7 to Eb, this chord gives you Bb7b9sus4. This is how I found it, by playing the associated in sen scale over Bb7. It sounded so cool I thought why not play the chord that the notes were spelling out

    It's an intriguing pitch collection, and I have been fond of it for years, long before I realised Coltrane used it for tunes like Impressions.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Just stumbled upon this chord by accident - never used one before, seems useable resolving to either maj or min. How do you guys get on with this chord?
    Most usually it’s a predominant chord like IIm7b5. Same thing with a different bass

    G7sus4b9 G7b9 Cm

    You can also think
    Fm/G

    Afternoon in Paris has a nice example

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Just stumbled upon this chord by accident - never used one before, seems useable resolving to either maj or min. How do you guys get on with this chord?
    Inversion of Ab D G C F
    AbM7+4 Bass G
    Or inversion of a quartal chord.

    When the resolution is not evident it's quartal even if there is a third, it's the result of an inversion.

    It can come from F minor melodic.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Haha! Fancy that - you've hit right on how I found this chord in the first place!

    To answer you question, this scale you mention has various names :

    Insen scale - Wikipedia

    The John Coltrane Pentatonic – The Practice of Practice

    It's one of my faves and can be used against Dom9, m6 and m7b5 among others.

    It can also be used for some alt dom sounds, just as a m7b5 played from the b7 degree of a dom chord yields the b9 and b13 tones.

    Now, if you play this m7b5 chord (say Fm7b5 over G7alt) and resolve to Cm, you can then play this same chord to sub for the V of the relative major (Eb maj), so in place of Bb7 to Eb, this chord gives you Bb7b9sus4. This is how I found it, by playing the associated in sen scale over Bb7. It sounded so cool I thought why not play the chord that the notes were spelling out

    It's an intriguing pitch collection, and I have been fond of it for years, long before I realised Coltrane used it for tunes like Impressions.
    Thanks for the link to the Coltrane Pents..and on that site is a Lydian pents demo..

    great improvisation tools and very tasty lines over just about any style..