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Hey Rick the modal reference is... what is the Tonal Reference.
Ex.... your playing a Minor blues, say Birk's Works in Fmin.
So on the I chord, F-7... what would be the I VI II V ?
If you use Fmin aeloian typical VI- natural min etc.... Maj/Min functional harmony, the I VI II V would be,
F-7 Dbma7 G-7b5 C-7 or I-7, bVIma7 , II-7b5, V-7 or all chords from Key of Ab.... right. And most usually somewhat adjust the chords to work... we usually plug in Harmonic Min. to get the altered Dom chord on the V chord, and then most also usually make bVImin chord also a Dom. chord. Which can either be the tri-tone sub of V7 or secondary Dom approach etc...
So when we use Modal Concepts.... we could change that Imin chord to Dorian... now the I VI II V becomes
F-7 D-7b5 G-7 C-7 which usually becomes F-7 D7alt. G-7 C7alt.
What we're doing... or have the musically organized "modal interchange" option of doing... is using Modal concepts of having access to expand harmonic choices. Which is really just a musical organized approach for organizing embellishments, expanding maj/min functional harmony to Modal Functional, and for many jazz players... have more choices for expanding changes, improve, and great approach for using Tonal Target approaches, which is what Chord Patterns are. It is also great approach for expanding use of Blue Notes harmony.
Yea Mr. Bop... very cool album, that was fun. I'm also old, I was playing gigs in the 60's.
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08-31-2022 10:51 AM
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Thanks for the expanded explanation!
Originally Posted by Reg
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For me that sounds still very complicated. But it works for you for organizing the material and leads to some really nice playing that as I have stated before is clearly above average. I really dig it. Originally Posted by Reg
In the 60ies I wasn’t even planned yet but your playing is still fresh (when Dark Side Of The Moon was released I was two months old). Thanks for being so generous and putting all those videos up. Although my way of thinking is different there is still a ton to learn from them for me.
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Came up with this one this morning:
For a minor tonic, let’s say E–, play
x79(11)8x — E–add9 (or E–add2 if you want)
x7(10)88x
x7969x — E–6
The second chord has two notes from the E–6 and two notes borrowed from the F#o (E minor sixth diminished scale; stricly speaking the 9th in the first chord is a borrowed diminished note as well).
The whole thing is rather stretched, I have still difficulties playing it properly myself, especially the first one, but it sounds nice.
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Why is the F# against Em a "borrowed diminished note"? Em is a key and it has an F#. Originally Posted by Bop Head
If the idea is that it's not in Em6, but it is in F#dim (or whatever you choose to call C Eb F# A), why is this a better way of thinking about it?
What am I missing?
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It’s using the Barry Harris sixth-diminished approach, i.e. you start with a ‘scale’ of chords, basically alternating sixth chords and diminished chords. You can tweak any of the chords by ‘borrowing’ notes from the adjacent chord(s) in the scale. It’s very similar to some of the big-band arranging techniques for harmonising a melodic line.
Of course you can ignore all that and just play a ‘standalone’ Em with an F# in it, but Barry is looking at it as a whole system of harmonic movement, rather than just individual chords.
Really it’s something you need to investigate properly to get the benefit of it. E.g. the ‘Things i learned from Barry Harris’ youtube channel has lots of good explanations of BH stuff applied to the guitar. Look for the ones that mention ‘sixth-diminished’.
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Yeah I was looking at Wes’s version of Whipser Not yesterday. There’s some nice drop2 block chord stuff in that as one might expect, using that exact concept.
Barry never claimed to have invented these scales, he just used them more freely than earlier players. By borrowing the diminished notes into the basic inversions of the sixth chords you can come up with some gorgeous stuff and start to move away from strict block chord parallel motion. Here’s a classic, ascending scale bass.
x 3 x 4 5 x
x 3 x 2 5 x
x 5 x 5 6 x
x 5 x 4 6 x
x 7 x 7 8 x
x 7 x 5 8 x
x 8 x 9 9 x
x 8 x 7 9 x
last two chords are bloody lovely
I also like to borrow the sixth chord notes in to the diminished chord. So in C
x x 9 10 9 12
x x 9 10 9 10
X x 6 7 6 8
x x 6 7 6 7
x x 3 4 3 6
x x 3 4 3 4
notice we have a scale in the top voice, and it works to break up the obvious ‘dim 7’ sound a bit.
i see these sort of things as analogous to classical style suspension chains.
This is cool too, borrowed alto note ascending minor 6 scale
x 3 5 4 4 x
x 5 6 5 6 x
x 6 7 7 8 x
x 8 9 8 9 x
x 10 10 10 11 x
x 11 12 12 12 x
x 12 13 13 13 x
x 2 3 2 3 x
x 3 5 4 4 x
interesting fact - according to Howard Rees, Barry apparently didn’t start teaching the 8 note scales until the 80s which is interesting.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-01-2022 at 02:54 PM.
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I like to chuck a few quartal chords in here and there, I once wrote down some progressions for them which might be useful.
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Christian and Grahambop have already explained Barry Harris’ concept of borrowing nicely. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
What I like about the concept: In my example it is much easier to think “E–6 with two borrowed diminished notes” than analyzing it as maybe C–/E or E–(maj7)#5 or something like that. Borrowing from the diminished can lead to some rather dissonant hip voicings.
You could even go as far as borrowing three notes from the “other” chord while harmonizing a melody with a sixth diminished scale as Adam Manness from Open Studio shows in this video:
Of course four-way-close is almost impossible on guitar unless you are Johnny Smith so adapt with e.g. drop 2s for guitar.
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Can I just comment on what a great name Adam Manness is. It’s up there with Dave Stryker.
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Yea... there are different approaches for playing Jazz. For most of my life Barry was just a straight ahead Player.
I still don't like the Dim. approach... always sound like more of an effect, even the vid above by Adam, makes me like it less.... but making $ has always been difficult playing music. Reminds me of trying to play Jazz with classical organizational guidelines. But if it works for some... great.
Nice post of quartal style voicings by Graham. But again they tend to be more of an effect.... unless you were Mccoy. But they're all great tools to have in your bag of tricks.... and everyone should go through the time to work out and notate the organizational style out. Again so you understand how and where the voicings were designed to work.
Play a set of music or 7 to 10 tunes in a row and see how much you actually use the approach or are you just forcing it in because it's cool.
When you use single notes as part of Chord Patterns... it's also useful to create montuno like note patterns for the chords. You'll find different notes to use for the same chords that create the same functional movement. helps develop more options when actually playing or performing.
Ex of simple II V or just II or V ( Bb-7 Eb7)
X X 6 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
X X 5 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
or
X X 3 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
X X 5 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
or
X X10 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
X X 8 X X X
X X X 6 6 X
X X X 6 6 X
Here's a old video of using montuno comping on Spain... skip to 3:00 for ex of using montuno licks and how they can develop etc...
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Not to be confused with Mark Stryker LOL Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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While I don’t agree it sounds like an effect in Barry’s hands at least (just go and listen to some Barry solo stuff) I think that actually hits the nail on the head. Jazz harmony and classical harmony weren’t as different in the 1940s as they became later. I think Barry basically regarded all innovations in jazz harmony post 1959 as a wrong turn. (I don’t agree with this btw lol.) Tbh I don’t even know if he was interested much in 20th century classical; he usually talked about Bach and Chopin. Originally Posted by Reg
As I say when he came to write his obit, Ethan Iverson focussed on his use of the dim chord and pointed out that other pianists following the 50s had basically abandoned it. It’s a great point and I think it makes it clear where Barry’s aesthetic is in terms of harmony.
i compare it to an oil painting by Rembrandt; in contrast modern pianists use primary colours like Picasso or Matisse. Both are beautiful but they have their own attraction. That said Barry’s materials can be harnessed for more modern effects.
I think quartal harmony in McCoy’s playing is more akin to the practice of ‘spanning’ in West African Balafon music and has most do with the pentatonic scale.Nice post of quartal style voicings by Graham. But again they tend to be more of an effect.... unless you were Mccoy. But they're all great tools to have in your bag of tricks.... and everyone should go through the time to work out and notate the organizational style out.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-01-2022 at 02:56 PM.
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Another sixth diminished application:
When you replace the V of a II V with its tritone sub plus the II of the latter
like e.g.
| D–7 / / / | G7 / / / | C ~
becomes
| D–7 / / / | Ab–7 / Db7 / | C ~
because D–7 and Ab–7 share the same diminished (F6 and B6 share Eo) you can use it for a smooth transition between the two:
xx(10)(10)(10)(12) — D–7/9
xx(11)(12)(11)(12) — Eo
xx9(11)(11)(11) — Ab–7/9
xx9(10)9(11) — Db7/9
xx998(10) — Cmaj7/9 (E—7)
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Ever check out Noah Kellman's videos...Pents and Dom pents etc...
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Normally I run for my life when I read “neo-soul”, that’s why I did not pay much attention to Noah Kellmann’s channel so far. But now I took a look at it and the strange thing is that this guy who makes so many videos about fancy harmonic stuff when it comes to playing a simple tune like “On The Sunny Side Of The Street” in a more traditional way gives us a ten minute rendition that is IMHO totally boring comping plus an anaemic and lifeless sequence of intellectualized ideas with no real intensity (I hate to be so negative, but it really amazed me that he has absolutely no story to tell and I’d rather not be on that side of the street.) Originally Posted by Reg
Compare to this one: I wish no one the sad life of James Booker (getting into jail for heroin abuse as a queer African-American 50 years ago might not have been so funny) but this guy really knew what it meant “to walk in the shade with the blues on parade” and plays for his life, driving his Swiss audience crazy:
Better directly comparable maybe Emmet Cohen’s solo here (starts around 2:30). Worlds apart from Kellmann’s and Emmet keeps it short and concise.
But I yet have to dive deeper into that Kellmann channel and maybe I can yet pull something out of it.
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Recently I started experimenting with substituting a V7 chord with bIImaj7 – VIImaj7 (bVI–7/9) – bVI–6 (bII7/9)
as in e.g. in Eb
x7989x — 1 2
x5767x – 3
x5647x – 4
resolving to x6878x
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Yea... Mr Bop The link was for Christian and just about the Mccoy Pents thing use of Maj and Dom pents and quartal voicings... LOL
Many technical players just don't have very good feels or use of their technique. And it seems he's no exception.
Anyway sorry for misdirection LOL
Your ma7 subs sound like
Ema7
Dma7 Dma6
Ebma7 watch what happends
bII is standard sub for V anything. I'm out of town for a week.... but when I get back. We can really get into chord patterns and expanding subs if you want.... the format for notating works.... but examples are much better.
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To me, sounding more sophisticated is essential in jazz, not really an effect. The BH techniques sound really elegant and add a huge amount of harmonic sophistication. Besides, you don't have to use it all the time or always go main chord, dim, inversion, dim, like the open studio exercise. Once you get the feel for it you can use it how you want or use it melodically. Guitar is tougher to grab chords than piano, so I'd absolutely modify the application to simpler bits for guitar - not always go 4 note inversion, 4 note dim forever. Originally Posted by Reg
You can use that argument against any device. If we didn't forcefully work advanced devices into our playing, we'd all be playing pentatonic rock. It takes practice and time to work devices into your playing that you'd be able to execute live or recording.Play a set of music or 7 to 10 tunes in a row and see how much you actually use the approach or are you just forcing it in because it's cool.
Listen to how advanced this guy's comping sounds with BH dim embellishment at 29:15. Is he killing himself to play it? No. Takes a bit of work tho.
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Thanks for posting this video. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I haven't spent any time trying to learn Barry Harris' system, but I did watch this video.
It seemed to me that a major theme of the video was what I learned decades ago as I - V7 movements. So, that, for example, beats 3 and 4 of All of Me could be played as a G7 or G7b9. Then back to the tonic for the second bar.
When he gets to E7, he analyzes it as a V chord in Am (again, a V7 - I relationship) and does the movement V7b9 to I. That is, he starts on the G#dim (same notes as E7b9), then Am6, then another E7b9 and another Am6.
And so on.
A standard technique in building horn arrangements which harmonize every note of a melody, is it not?
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Well yes that’s the origin of it. Barry didn’t invent that btw; that’s as standard arranging technique you can use on piano or guitar - block chords. Think George Shearing or on guitar obviously Wes. On piano four way close is possible but drop 2 is common on both guitar and piano. Any that’s all in Mark Levine’s books so you are probably familiar. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Barrys innovation as I understand it was to introduce freer and less parallel treatments of the scale and use it as the basis of his harmonic language
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No prob. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
You can do anything you want with the placement and arrangement of the device. Notice the difference between the open studio demo and Bill's. There are many applications of it. The BH videos are a lot to sort thru. I forgot where I saw him play some melodic chord crap with it but it was cool. I'll have to look again.It seemed to me that a major theme of the video was what I learned decades ago as I - V7 movements. So, that, for example, beats 3 and 4 of All of Me could be played as a G7 or G7b9. Then back to the tonic for the second bar.
Yeah. You can also just alternate between main chord, dim, inversion, dim no matter what the chord is. It works. Sometimes a note or 2 will repeat and it will deviate from the parent dim 6 scale but it works. Requires no analysis.When he gets to E7, he analyzes it as a V chord in Am (again, a V7 - I relationship) and does the movement V7b9 to I. That is, he starts on the G#dim (same notes as E7b9), then Am6, then another E7b9 and another Am6.
Yep, think Christian answered that accurately.A standard technique in building horn arrangements which harmonize every note of a melody, is it not?
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Thanks,
I think these are melodic and inspiring examples
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Originally Posted by pingu
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This a great topic although very broad...
It's all about the context and I think it's important to reflect on the tradition, how this way of playing became a thing. You know, in the end it's about harmony chord voicing and progression. "Double stop" (two simultaneous notes) is also a harmony and many times we don't have to use more than two, three or maybe four notes to express a complex harmony in the context of a band mix. Actually we don't have to use more than one single note (as demonstrated by e.g Basie and Freddy Green).
As you know, a single chord voicing could sometimes also be outside the scale, which could be used as an effect. There are also passing chords. When clusters of notes are moved in a flow, the flow itself is often more important than having each chord inside the scale. "I don't bother with theory, because it confuses me" (Joe Pass)
Another important aspect of comping, is not to get in the way by blurring the sound. Skipping the drone strings (low E and A) makes the guitar cut through and only having four strings to work with makes it easier to focus on the important notes. But again, it's all about context.
Joe Pass says:
"A lot of playing comes from the form that you use (in this context meaning "grip" or shape.) There are certain forms on guitar that sounds good. Watch any player, e.g Benson, Metheny, van Eps etc, and you'll see they stick to simple forms, mostly barre forms, chords that are really basic and not hard to grip. A lot of lines come out of those forms. Looking at the form, everything is under your fingers, not just arpeggios, but scale lines."
Joe is not insinuating the chord names would be simple. The name and sound of a colored chord can be complex even though the chord is easy to grip. The essence of it is that by finding a rhythmic and melodic flow, moving the changes in a relaxed fashion naturally creates voicings we associate with jazz.
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Here's a great clinic with Dr. Pass.
He talks about the blues (arguably there may be other forms of Jazz).
Joe identifies a number of forms of the form blues, in which he uses lots of different forms of fretting.
(Joe doesn't bother with theory, because he says "it confuses me").
I think there are even more forms of the blues than mentioned here, but it doesn't matter. What matters is the excellent techniques and the brilliant ear of the man.
When playing chords; always keep them connected by a pedal tone (one tone stays unchanged) or by voice leading (a melodic line moving with the chords).
You'll get a number of cool sounding grips and progressions, i.e chord patterns. Highly recommended:
...oh, and I have to contribute!
In the clinic Dr. Joe tells us it's important to end a song...
When in doubt, ask yourself; -What would Basie do?
x x 8 8 7 9
x x 8 9 8 9
(9)(8) 8 8 9 9Last edited by JCat; 09-05-2022 at 08:03 AM.
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