The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Yes, I assume what makes the most sense is that practice came before theory. You add E to a Gm chord and it sounds good -- that works for me.

    Add 2 chords (major and minor) sound good to me, too:

    xx7333: Gm(add 2)

    What does Barry say about Add2 chords?
    I think Add2s are a really good shout for a pure minor if you don’t want to play the minor triad. 6ths and 7ths always seem to change the minor sound in some way, regardless of whether they are flat or not.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    thanks yes I get you
    very useful

    but is there a typo ?
    should it say
    xx9 11 10 x
    to
    xx8 11 10x
    Right. Thanks for catching that. It's moving the B to the Bb.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    thanks everyone I’m esp liking

    x9 8 7 10 x
    xxx 12 11 14
    x7 8 7 10 x
    (thanks Christian top man)

    xx 8 11 10 x thanks RP
    ———-
    plus inspired be you all i found these

    xx 5776
    6 x 777x
    x5433x

    groovy .....
    these will give me enough to munch
    on for a while

    cheers
    love this place
    Glad this is helpful.

    As you know, you can take every one of those grips (or any other) and move it up/down the neck through the Gmelodic minor scale and every resulting grip will work as a "G melodic minor chord" per Mark Levine. I've never found one that didn't work, although I like some more than others.

    The problem is that every grip leads to 6 more. In your post you identified 7 grips. Move each one through the scale and you get 49 grips. And, you're not going to play them only in G melodic minor. So maybe you need to multiply that 49 x 12. 588 total?

    How can you get all that info to be usable on the bandstand?

    One way is simply not to try. So, for example, I like xx5776. I remember the grip and that the b3 of the melmin scale is on the high E string. I can now find it in any key, since I know the b3 in all 12 keys without having to think about it. Similarly, I know that xx2333 has the root on top. Also, that xx4335 has the 9th on top. I know some others like that, and I can use them.

    But, I still think the best way to get a lot of this under your fingers is to learn the notes in all 12 melodic minor scales so that you know them as instantly as you know C major. If you already know the major scales, you're only adjusting one note.

    Then, when you encounter a melodic minor chord, say a Em7b5, you know, instantly, that the chord is a G mel min chord and that any G mel min chord will work in its place. The fretboard then lights up in your mind as if red LED's were showing you all the notes you can choose from.

    Let's suppose you're on the chord just before the melodic minor chord. Wherever you're playing it, those LED's are showing you the nearest notes, including notes you don't have to change because they're in the chord you're playing and, also, the next chord. You hear the sound of the chord you're playing and, if you're only moving a note or two (and by a small interval like a half step or step) you can probably imagine the sound you're going to get when you change.

    At that point, you're beyond grips. Not that knowing as many grips as you can isn't a good thing. They come in handy when you're playing a lot of chords at a fast tempo and your brain can't keep up.

    It's a lot of work, but so is the alternative.

  5. #29

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    "The fretboard then lights up in your mind as if red LED's were showing you all the notes you can choose from." -

    G mel minor chords-unnamed-png

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by rictroll
    "The fretboard then lights up in your mind as if red LED's were showing you all the notes you can choose from." -

    G mel minor chords-unnamed-png
    It looks intimidating that way.

    But, as you're playing and you want to move, say, to Gmelmin, it's not this bad.

    For one thing, you might not want to move very far and, if you're comping, you may already have some fingers on notes from Gmelmin.
    So, it becomes a question of what notes are nearby and accessible to the fingers you have free.

    When you know the notes in Gmelmin and you know the fingerboard - cold - it's not that bad. You know where you are on the fingerboard and you know what notes from Gmelmin are nearby.

    It's not a short-cut. It's a lot of work. But so is the alternative.

  7. #31

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    yea... some great voicings.... generally there should be some reason why your using a voicing. The obvious reasons are...

    Your implying a type of Function
    Your supporting a Lead line or Melodic note
    your using the voicing as part of a Chord Pattern

    ex.
    X X 2 3 3 2
    x x 2 3 3 3 ...all from G-
    x x 3 3 3 5

    x x 8 7 8 6
    x x 8 7 5 8 ... from E-7b5, (or C13)

    or same lead line

    8 7 8 7 7 x
    x 7 8 7 8 x
    x 9 8 9 10 x
    x 10 8 10 11 x
    x 13 12 14 13 x

    Most Voicings can work or function in multiple ways and reflect different actual references or Names.

    As Rick quoted from Marks books... "no avoid or bad notes from MM". That's not really the case when actually playing or performing. There is always an implied Musical Context, and Musical Contexts have harmonic and melodic implications which have general Guidelines.

    Personally... when I play voicings.... there is always a reason, a musically organizational reference... why I play that voicing.

    In practical applications.... I generally use a Functional reference and then create or play Chord Patterns that create Relationships with that Reference.

    Ex. those simple Lead Line Chord Patterns above can have a Sub Dom Functional reference or a Tonic Reference.

    I could use then with a simple S.D.... II- V, G- to C7... or a Tonic G- Reference. How I might use them with the Harmonic Rhythm would create the Function..... the perception of Movement or rest.

    Simple version... how I play the series of Voicings... Rhythmically, can create the feeling or perception of a Cycle in motion or a feeling or ordered sense of Sustain.

    And I could just use the voicings as part of a lead Line. F# G A Bb C. Which, with some melodic and rhythmic work become a melodic Lick .... and then with the voicings becomes a Chord pattern Lick. Which becomes a method of comping... instead of playing chords or voicings... you play Chord Licks... or Chord Patterns.

    I could go on... there is lots of jazz musical organization for using Voicings... but it takes some technical skills and understanding of how to use then in different contexts. Boring work on notation paper as well as on instrument.

  8. #32

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    G mel min chords, that's how I do it:

    Take G maj7 (or6) chords and lower the third (B) half a step to Bb.
    Take Bb6 chord and raise the 5th (F) half a step to F#.
    Take B min7 chords and lower the root half a step.
    Take Em7b5 chords and lower the 3rd (G) half a step.

    Don't need to learn any new chords, just alter the ones you know. Some are a bit tricky to finger so I don't.

  9. #33
    Thanks Don that’s a great way to
    derive grips ....

    and Reg ....that chord run !
    I love that !
    your stuff is so real world usable
    thank you so much , you are most generous
    I’ll use that ....

  10. #34
    Hey this is great ....
    I was messing about with all these
    new chords you guys posted
    and I noticed there’s a C triad and a D triad in there .....
    so I’m messing around with those triads
    and I got a whole new sound
    (for my ears at least)
    based off the 5 chord D7 with a b6
    (”mix b6” scale is it called ?)

    great .... a lovely new sound

    ps
    of course I know many of you guys
    play this sound already .... but
    for me it’s new , which is fabulous

  11. #35

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    Its the harmonic movement that gives life to the melodic exploriation..using the MM as the material for improvisation..

    moving the voices in the chords produced by the scale chic of course creates other chords and then using those chords their inversions and chord runs will give new life
    to the MM notes..changing their rhythmic pattern and position again give new life to well used notes

    just playing with the several chords Reg posted moving some of the voices and inversions..I found some melodic feel of Hancocks Maiden Voyage..and some nice scale patterns on top

  12. #36

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    I don't fully understand how Reg develops his harmony. I wish I did because he gets results!

    I learned what I know of it a different way.

    1. Chuck Wayne's system of 4 note chords, 7, m7, m6, m7b5, 7#11 etc. His system had 4 inversions of each, so you could get any note on top. Then, with a little wiggling of the pinkie (usually), you could get any note on top of just about any chord. That leads to being able to play a melodic line in chords. Chuck could solo like that.

    2. Warren Nunes' system of two types of chords. Basically, tonic and dominant, although he didn't use those terms. This gives even more options for basic major, minor and dominant chords. If Warren's system went further, I never found out about it. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

    3. Mark Levine's principle that all melodic minor chords are the same chord. Reg has pointed out limits to this -- and I trust his judgement/teaching, but, to the extent I've tested this principle, it has worked. Levine worked out certain chords and presented them as fundamental - some of the choices may be arguable, but they seem to work. So, Cminmaj7, Dsusb9, Ebmaj7#5, F7#11, G7b13, Am7b5 and Balt are all the same chord. This becomes another principle that leads to chord substitutions that work.

    It's easy enough to try. Pick a tune with one of those chords and substitute in various voicings constructed from the melodic minor scale. I have tried it with a few tunes and found that the alternative voicings usually work (actually, I haven't found an exception in my experiments, but I won't rule out the possibility), even though they don't sound the same. I do like some better than others.

    Levine's principle is based on the absence of an avoid note in melodic minor harmony. This leads to the hypothesis that you can take any chord within melodic minor harmony and change any note -- to a different note in the same melodic minor scale -- and the new chord will have the same function. I think there's some truth to this, but I also think Reg was right to point out that there are limitations by function.

    If I understand this, it may relate to the following example. The harmony is Gmaj to Gmelmin. The basic movement is B to Bb. But, Levine's principle would suggest that the second chord doesn't have to have a Bb. If it doesn't, where does the sound of minor come from? My impression is that whether or not the chord has the b3 is a predictor of how well my ear will accept the substitution.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-29-2022 at 05:48 AM.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I don't fully understand how Reg develops his harmony. I wish I did because he gets results!

    I learned what I know of it a different way.

    1. Chuck Wayne's system of 4 note chords, 7, m7, m6, m7b5, 7#11 etc. His system had 4 inversions of each, so you could get any note on top. Then, with a little wiggling of the pinkie (usually), you could get any note on top of just about any chord. That leads to being able to play a melodic line in chords. Chuck could solo like that.

    2. Warren Nunes' system of two types of chords. Basically, tonic and dominant, although he didn't use those terms. This gives even more options for basic major, minor and dominant chords. If Warren's system went further, I never found out about it. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

    3. Mark Levine's principle that all melodic minor chords are the same chord. Reg has pointed out limits to this -- and I trust his judgement/teaching, but, to the extent I've tested this principle, it has worked. Levine worked out certain chords and presented them as fundamental - some of the choices may be arguable, but they seem to work. So, Cminmaj7, Dsusb9, Ebmaj7#5, F7#11, G7b13, Am7b5 and Balt are all the same chord. This becomes another principle that leads to chord substitutions that work.

    Levine's principle is based on the absence of an avoid note in melodic minor harmony. This leads to the hypothesis that you can take any chord within melodic minor harmony and change any note -- to a different note in the same melodic minor scale -- and the new chord will have the same function. I think there's some truth to this, but I also think Reg was right to point out that there are limitations by function.

    If I understand this, it may relate to the following example. The harmony is Gmaj to Gmelmin. The basic movement is B to Bb. But, Levine's principle would suggest that the second chord doesn't have to have a Bb. If it doesn't, where does the sound of minor come from?
    They are all specific voicings with a specific sound. You can theoretically group them into the category melodic minor but they don’t all sound the same.

    if I take for example a Gm triad and use that as a melodic minor voicing it obviously won’t have some of the characteristic melodic minor notes, but it still obeys those principles. in the same way I can do the same thing with a D triad which will sound totally different

    No chord is actually melodic minor unless it has all seven notes.

    In this case melodic minor just becomes a thing you can do with a chord if it contains only notes from the MM scale, but very obviously it doesn’t have to contain all the notes from an MM scale as none of the examples above do.

    All the voicings of course, sound different. They don’t have to include the ‘butter notes’ actually sometimes it’s nicer if they don’t. That D triad for instance can sound very modern…

    Levine’s principle is just a single example of what Mick Goodrick would call ‘derivative’ thinking… This has been around for a long time, and you can see the roots of it in Charlie Christian and of course Billy Strayhorn. Barry Harris’s m6-dim scale transforms in exactly the same way. Linearly you don’t have to be so hung up on avoid notes so anything minor would work. You could even use the augmented structure in the MM as a gateway to the whole tone scale (as Wes does for example.) My favourite 60s era musicians seem to be a bit looser about the whole thing than you might think from reading theory. I think now players are more chord/scale fastidious… in general I feel jazz has become less chromatic/melodic and more modal/harmonic.

    Btw not all musicians or theorists have the same view on ‘avoid notes’ - the Berklee definition has some problems with it. Levine is more relaxed iirc. For me the whole system is simplistic and the way we view extensions is upside down; Stephon Harris is onto something.

    In practice theory can suggest but you have to use your ears to decide if you like a sound. It’s almost as if music is a creative endeavour or something.

  14. #38

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    Re avoid notes in melodic minor scales not everyone agrees that the MM modes have none; I think this article is similar to Nettles/Graf?

    Avoid note - Wikipedia

    The upshot being that while the MM itself has no avoid notes, some of the modes do and this presumably what’s important when applying a given voicing on a chord

    But in practice I agree with Levine’s principle and more relaxed attitude towards avoid notes. (Or perhaps he wasn’t thinking of 13susb9 or maj7#5 or whatever and focussing on the dominant and m7b5 applications which are the most common)

    The formal def of avoid notes is not one I take very seriously.

    For instance C sounds to me like an avoid note on Cmaj7 and G7b5 more so than C6 or G7#9b13*, and these two chords are obviously modally identical (C Ionian/Lydian and G altered respectively). Otoh F sounds way more dissonant to me on Cmaj7 than C7; so….. theory can give some guidelines but ultimately it’s up the ears… but people quote this stuff as if it’s holy writ rather than what it actually is which much more wishy washy and subjective. I blame the publishing industry.

    Anyway, use yer ears. Sorry to digress….

    *arranging books make reference to this iirc
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-29-2022 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #39

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    I'd like to train my brain to light up my fretboard as if it had LEDs. I made a little tool to help me discover chords and relationships:

    https://rjturek.github.io/rjtfrets/

    G mel minor chords-screen-shot-2022-01-29-9-33-02-am-png

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjturek
    I'd like to train my brain to light up my fretboard as if it had LEDs. I made a little tool to help me discover chords and relationships:

    https://rjturek.github.io/rjtfrets/

    G mel minor chords-screen-shot-2022-01-29-9-33-02-am-png
    Nice!

  17. #41

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    yea... there are basically three ways to comp.... I'm just keeping it simple.

    1) You play or use what you've memorized, learned from practice, developed during your performing experiences, or copied etc... the point is you use because you like or have the technical skills to use.

    2) You play etc... from learning theoretical concepts, the musical organization creates guidelines as to how to play.
    You play or comp using chords and voicings etc... because you understand the theoretical understandings of why and how they work in "context". It's like bumper cars... bumper musical guidelines.

    3) The last is what I do... I use both of the above, which requires lots of works and as I always say... Technical Skills. Being able to play what you don't have memorized or rehearsed... easily. The technical skills help control crash and burn situations....and the theoretical understandings help have musical control of Space, meaning you know where your going, Big picture.... and how your getting there Smaller pictures, using both what you know and what you understand.

    Christian is headed in the right direction, (not that what I think means much). Avoid note are like learning Bumpers, right.... you want to play and use everything you've memorized and learned, Method 1... above but can't seem to get it together...avoid notes are like don't jump off cliffs unless you know how to fly LOL. Generally avoid notes are Arranging tool.

    I tend to disagree with the... use your ear approach for "most".... and the obvious reason is most haven't really taught their ears to be able to hear, so you would be limiting your possibilities, and most haven't developed their technical skills, which can be like safety nets when performing. (sorry for analogies)

    The other point I'll bring up about MM... I use MM as harmonic source and camouflage usage of Blue Notes and Blues licks and their Feels. Both harmonically and also in the embellishment style.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjturek
    I'd like to train my brain to light up my fretboard as if it had LEDs. I made a little tool to help me discover chords and relationships:

    https://rjturek.github.io/rjtfrets/

    G mel minor chords-screen-shot-2022-01-29-9-33-02-am-png

    Yea... that's how I've approached the fretboard for decades, add a few harmonic levels and relationships.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... that's how I've approached the fretboard for decades, add a few harmonic levels and relationships.
    This is about the LED's lighting up idea:

    I already knew how to read, so I knew the fretboard.

    I noticed that I knew where every note in a Cmaj scale was on the guitar without having to think about it. Same for all the notes in a Cmaj7 chord. That is, I knew the names of the notes and I knew where those notes are.

    And, I knew some other keys/chords just as well. But, there were plenty that I didn't know that well. By which I mean, instantly knowing where the notes are without having to think, as if they lit up.

    So, some years ago, I decided to memorize the names of the notes in all the keys to the point where they were automatic. That gave me major (with the modes) and natural minor. After that, I memorized melodic minor. That was as far as I went with scales. For situations where other players might think harmonic minor or others, I adjust by ear. I then made a point of learning the notes in the chords I use -- to try to get them all as automatic as Cmaj7.

    I don't think I'll ever quite get to the goal, but it works reasonably well. One thing I like about it is that it doesn't require learning dots on fretboard diagrams -- which is something I simply couldn't bring myself to do.

    It's a lot of work and thinking this way may have its downside. It does nothing for jazz feel and not much for vocabulary. You end up knowing where a lot of things are that are inside sounds, and it's another layer to try to use it for outside sounds. It doesn't help with playing fast lines as much as practicing licks. I don't know anybody else who did it this way (not that I've asked many) and there's probably a good reason for that.