The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 37
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hi all, jazz beginner learning Autumn Leaves in G- as my first standard. I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally, in order to really grasp why it works, and why it sounds good. (Interested in songwriting myself)

    The A and B sections are pretty straightforward: 251(4) of Bb (relative major), and 251 of G minor. I'm working on understanding the C section better. Here's the section in green:



    So there's a couple ways I can see of reading this section:

    1. i IV7 vii III7 -- Not very useful to me
    2. vi II7 v I7 of relative major. This doesn't really make sense to me because you end up making minor chords major and vice versa.
    3. i IV7, ii-V of relative IV (as written above) -- this is better but still isn't telling me a lot about how I'm hearing the chords resolve back to ii-V-I.
    4. ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.


    I saw online this part was called a 'step-down progression.' I can hear that happening but I'm not really sure how it works. This gives me a couple of questions:
    • How is this progression actually resolving to your ears? What's the easiest way to think of it.
    • How do jazz standards use relative V and relative IV?
    • How do we use "step down progressions"?


    Last edited by stylo; 01-17-2022 at 05:49 AM.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    I don't do that 2-5 nonsense on the green part, I just do a step down progression on G- (G-, G-maj7, G-7, G-6) to Eb6 instead of the A half dim. It's easier and sounds better.
    Last edited by T Monk; 01-17-2022 at 04:04 AM.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    C Section
    Ouch.

    I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally
    That's not the same as playing it.

    in order to really grasp why it works
    Why shouldn't it work? It's a very simple, straightforward tune, like a folk song, not like one of those modern modal things.

    why it sounds good.
    It sounds good because it's so simple.

    It's just a major ii-V-I and its relative minor ii-V-i twice. It couldn't be more straightforward.

    What's the easiest way to think of it.
    It's just a connecting device between the Gm and the Am7b5 (which is often played as EbM7).

    It also makes it more interesting to listen to. You could just as easily play Gm for two bars there, it makes no difference to the melody which is just one long D note.

    The other way to do it (and probably more popular) is to play it chromatically:

    Gm7/F#7 - Fm7/E7 - EbM7

    You're over-thinking it, which is what usually happens when we start analysing simple things. Wait till you get something really impossible!
    Last edited by ragman1; 01-17-2022 at 06:58 AM.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    OK bear with me

    first .....
    sub a Eb6 for the Am7b5
    after the green section
    (flat5 sub)
    x655xx

    nice .....

    how I see/hear the green section
    is ‘one way’ to get from Gm to that Eb6

    you don’t have to do that every time
    its just ‘one way’ of doing it

    people will use different chord movements
    there , or none , as you’ve just read here

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    If you really want to know why it 'sounds good', that's very simple too.

    The ii-V-I cadence is the most pleasing to the ear, even more so than the IV-V-I. Similarly with it's relative minor ii-V-i. And that's all there is here.

    Also, if you check the melody, you'll see that it consistently lands on the 3rd of each chord. The 3rd is the 'prettiest' note you can use.

    Put the two together and you've got a sure-fire recipe for a really nice tune.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Also, over the connecting device, you can see why that works too. The long D note of the melody corresponds legitimately with all those chords. Over the cycle of 4ths, adding the D each time, the chords become:

    Gm7/C9 - Fm13/Bb7 - Am11

    Over the chromatic version:

    Gm7/F#7b13 - Fm13/E7 - EbM7

    So it's all very clever.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    But the real point is: Can you play the damn thing! Otherwise what's the point?

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by stylo
    4.ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.
    So you are asking how does Bb7 resolve to Amin7b5? Simple, Bb7 is just tritone of E7 which is a V of A min.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by stylo
    Hi all, jazz beginner learning Autumn Leaves in G- as my first standard. I'm interested in understanding what's happening compositionally, in order to really grasp why it works, and why it sounds good. (Interested in songwriting myself)

    The A and B sections are pretty straightforward: 251(4) of Bb (relative major), and 251 of G minor. I'm working on understanding the C section better. Here's the section in green:



    So there's a couple ways I can see of reading this section:

    1. i IV7 vii III7 -- Not very useful to me
    2. vi II7 v I7 of relative major. This doesn't really make sense to me because you end up making minor chords major and vice versa.
    3. i IV7, ii-V of relative IV (as written above) -- this is better but still isn't telling me a lot about how I'm hearing the chords resolve back to ii-V-I.
    4. ii-V of F (relative V), ii-V of Eb (relative IV) -- this is what makes the most sense to me but I'm not sure how we end back up on the ii, how that resolution works.


    I saw online this part was called a 'step-down progression.' I can hear that happening but I'm not really sure how it works. This gives me a couple of questions:
    • How is this progression actually resolving to your ears? What's the easiest way to think of it.
    • How do jazz standards use relative V and relative IV?
    • How do we use "step down progressions"?
    - it’s a sub for the original changes; the originals don’t have that bit in green IIRC. It’s just Gm
    - if soloing over the sub I’d get rid of Bb7 (you can always play Fm minor over Bb7 anyway), then it’s a II v I in Gm dovetailed into a ii V I in Fm.

    Oh yeah;
    - Don’t play Gm7. The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I’ve also seen Gm7 F#m7 Fm7 Bb7 in that green section.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.
    That might confuse him.

    You probably mean that, in the original, it's two bars of Gm which can be subbed for Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6... but that's a bit folky. The jazz version is nearly always the descending rundown. And he's looking at that himself in his version.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    The thing to remember in these simple progressions is that it's not a plot. If the chords were all over the place the music wouldn't work, it's as simple as that.

    There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That might confuse him.

    You probably mean that, in the original, it's two bars of Gm which can be subbed for Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6... but that's a bit folky. The jazz version is nearly always the descending rundown. And he's looking at that himself in his version.
    i meant in the last couple of bars

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    The thing to remember in these simple progressions is that it's not a plot. If the chords were all over the place the music
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    wouldn't work, it's as simple as that. There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.
    Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the sound of the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    i meant in the last couple of bars
    You mean not in the green bit but the whole tune? Oh, you mean turn the Gm into a Gm6. Always nice. Mind you, if it's a t/a it usually goes to G7+ (- Cm). It's okay right at the end, of course.
    Last edited by ragman1; 01-17-2022 at 12:43 PM.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by T Monk
    [FONT=&amp]Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the sound of the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.
    You mean using the Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6 idea in the green bit? It works, I thought of it too, but for that jazzy touch I think I prefer the chromatic thing.

    And, as I said to Christian, a m6 is nice over the final two bars. The old ones are best :-)

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You mean not in the green bit but the whole tune? Oh, you mean turn the Gm into a Gm6. Always nice. Mind you, if it's a t/a it usually goes to G7+ (- Cm). It's okay right at the end, of course.
    Yeah don’t play Gm7 in Autumn Leaves as the default I chord. A straight Gm would be a better choice, but any minor type chord with a natural (major) 6 and/or seventh is good. Gm6 is the obvious choice.

    it’s fine as a passing chord in the green bit.

    I mean I’m sure it’s fine if Wes or someone does it but a beginner should understand the difference between a m7 and a real minor chord.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    It is a III-VI-II-V in Eb. People actually do play this so I wouldn't be too dismissive of it. Whoever said the last A-7b5 should be Ebmaj7 is right. They are closely related chords so not a big deal.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    You mean using the Gm/Gm(maj7) - Gm7/Gm6 idea in the green bit? It works, I thought of it too, but for that jazzy touch I think I prefer the chromatic thing.

    And, as I said to Christian, a m6 is nice over the final two bars. The old ones are best :-)
    I'll try the chromatic thing.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But the real point is: Can you play the damn thing! Otherwise what's the point?
    You know, I almost had a disclaimer in my original post SPECIFYING that I knew this wasn't about playing it. I'm interested in understanding the composition because I'm interested in songwriting. This is not helpful.

    That might confuse him.
    Her.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    - it’s a sub for the original changes; the originals don’t have that bit in green IIRC. It’s just Gm
    Quote Originally Posted by T Monk
    [FONT=&amp]Which is why I think a simple walk down on G- suits the soundof the tune better than jumping around with those 2-5s. It falls in with the summing up of the drama. Jumping around with 2-5s sounds terrible to me. Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence. Finally, using G-6 as the minor 1 chord can be more effective in general because it signifies a 1 rather than a 2.
    Gotcha thanks, this is useful to know. Yeah I'm looking at the old Real Book (key of E-) and it has E-7 Eb7 | D-7 Db7 | Cmaj7 | B7b9 | E-. Which is more along the lines of "step down progression." I didn't realize the changes I posted were subbed for the original.

    - Don’t play Gm7. The correct chord there is Gm6 or at a push Gm(maj7), a better sound for a tonic minor chord.
    Yep! That's how I'm learning it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    There's always a logic to it, either 2-5's, chromatic connecting chords, tritone subs, backdoor subs, or some other such thing. It's only in the modern modal pieces that the chords appear random. With these standards there aren't many which have odd progressions.
    I agree, part of my goal in understanding this one is to understand what is "common" for jazz progressions. When I see something I'm not familiar with I want to know what's going on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
    It is a III-VI-II-V in Eb. People actually do play this so I wouldn't be too dismissive of it. Whoever said the last A-7b5 should be Ebmaj7 is right. They are closely related chords so not a big deal.
    Thanks, this is helpful. I have seen 1-6-2-5-1 but this is my first 3-6-2-5 turnaround.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    I'm finding this helpful from a theoretical side as well: The Ultimate No Nonsense Guide to Jazz Harmony (jazzguitarlessons.net)

    Thanks for your answers.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    It's also worth noting that in many of the classic instrumental recordings - Bill Evans (Portrait in Jazz), Wynton Kelly (Wynton Kelly!), Tal Farlow (The Interpretations of Tal Farlow), Jim Hall (Alone Together) - the last Am7b5 is usually played as some kind of dominant, eg A7#5#9 or Eb13 in place of Am7b5 or Ebmaj7, giving it a more blues-tinged quality that helps highlight the final progression.
    Last edited by PMB; 01-17-2022 at 08:10 PM.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by T Monk
    [FONT=&amp]Then using an Eb6 instead of an A half dim gives some nice variation for the final cadence.
    If using an Eb6 here, are there any nice sounding extensions that can be played on it? I'm doing the shell voicing x655xx, there's a 9 available on the second string but not sure it sounds right.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    I like the major sound, so the first thing I would do is try the typical major variations if you can grab them. You could play a major 7 with the 6 as the melody note or you could try the #11.