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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    I saw somewhere that he had some lessons with Alan Reuss, but I can't remember the source. Is there anything to this?
    Ah now you are asking for scholarship.

    Mr Stout is my source for the GVE connection but it may well be via Reuss now I think about it. Maybe Jonathan will chip in?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Ha, love that!

  4. #28

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    There is some good Freddie on this record. He’s very audible during the bass solo here at 3:10, sounds mostly like one note to me, perhaps with the odd 2-note chord creeping in occasionally.


  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Oh the other thing is that Freddie’s feel is extremely even flat four, no accents on two and four unlike the Hot Club or AlCasey say. So even if his voicings changed it seems that’s how he always played?

    That said sometimes with Basie soloing he plays a bit more in 2, almost like a stride left hand lol. He then morphs into the flat four for the horns.
    New guitarists in bluegrass, gypsy, and jazz styles tend to over accent and strum to hard, but the quarter note feel really is about a light touch, if any accent at all its the 2nd and 4th beats are sustained a touch longer, not played harder IMHO. This is the way ive been taught at least.

  6. #30

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    I love quarter note comping, for a short time i was spending at least 15 minutes a day on quarter note comping trying to work it up to tempo. Im gonna get back to that. Heres a shot at Cherokee with two note voicings


  7. #31

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    George Bensons quarter note here is fantastic

  8. #32

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    Donovan, turn down your metronome!

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by mastodonovan
    New guitarists in bluegrass, gypsy, and jazz styles tend to over accent and strum to hard, but the quarter note feel really is about a light touch, if any accent at all its the 2nd and 4th beats are sustained a touch longer, not played harder IMHO. This is the way ive been taught at least.
    I’m not talking about beginners, I’m talking about recordings of the 1930s/40s. Stylistic divergences. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say FG was a pretty atypical and innovative rhythm player for the era. Post bop jazz in general had more of an even 4/4 feel and this is reflected in the styles of its rhythm players such as Tal Farlow, Jim Hall, Billy Bean etc Playing on electric guitar also changes the feel which of course FG never did.

    I must try it but it seems playing a longer accent on 2 and 4 would help this post war legato style and probably acts as a corrective to the natural tendency to ‘snatch’ at 2 and 4 (much as we ask students to accent the ‘ands’ in their lines.) I’ll give it a go!

    That said, the two feel is stylistically appropriate in some instances. This is what I would think of a classic 1930s-40s American Rhythm feel just for reference. Different from FG’s feel even during this era. Much more ‘in 2’


    (this is actually 1940s iirc)

    Another example from a different guitarist


    So it’s not a 2 4 accent per se but rather a slightly shorter chord on 2 and 4: at least to my ears. Makes it ‘pop’ a little more and sounds like an accent. FG did not appear to do this most of time (except when deliberately playing a sort of old time stride feel, which he does on some of the Savory recordings.)

    Even in ‘gypsy jazz’ (which as Denis Chang points out did not exist really in the 1930s and 40s) the rhythm section tends to be a little less accented to my ears than is common in Manouche Le pompe styles today:



    Its not wrong for these styles - actually it’s wrong to play a flat four here; but you have to understand how to do the accent in the right way and most beginners think it’s a different in volume; even some accomplished jazz players unfamiliar with the style. It’s not hard to fix though.

    The two-feel tends to creep in with faster tempos in general with this type of thing and is very much a stylistic trait of bluegrass, Manouche jazz etc. FG seems to resist this tendency even in the early recordings. The ‘slightly longer 2 and 4’ tip is probably a great way to work on this. Sounding good on the recording!

    The other thing is Freddie seems to have a very ‘fast’ strum to my ears; notes in chords are almost sounded simultaneously. This attack characteristic varies quite a bit between swing rhythm players….
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-29-2021 at 04:56 AM.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    most beginners think it’s a different in volume; even some accomplished jazz players unfamiliar with the style. It’s not hard to fix though.
    Wouldn't at least part of that be "not realising" than "thinking"? You listen to your examples or just try to come up with some kind of interpretation yourself, try to produce the effect you want and end up doing it through volume rather than something a bit more complex to control. We all know how hard it can be to control the dynamics if you're beginning to work on some technique, and that you really need to stop and listen to what you're actually doing. Don't we all also tend to forget how hard that can be when there are so many new things to cope with (and I explicitly include "listening to yourself" in the hard part )

  11. #35

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    Thanks for posting that vid of Benson subbing for Christian....

    Great example of background dance music movin on.

  12. #36

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    Yeah, we've kind of expanded away from discussing tenor line playing, though it has all been interesting. I'd like to hear others here taking a turn, in the tradition set by Jeff and I by just going for it, see what happens.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Wouldn't at least part of that be "not realising" than "thinking"? You listen to your examples or just try to come up with some kind of interpretation yourself, try to produce the effect you want and end up doing it through volume rather than something a bit more complex to control. We all know how hard it can be to control the dynamics if you're beginning to work on some technique, and that you really need to stop and listen to what you're actually doing. Don't we all also tend to forget how hard that can be when there are so many new things to cope with (and I explicitly include "listening to yourself" in the hard part )
    I think it's thinking that's the root of this. Intellectually they know there's an accent on 2 and 4 so they try to make one. It's actually harder to make a real dynamic accent on 2 and 4 than it is to do it right with left hand muting.

    (Some players do use a right hand accent too, but it's usually in the speed of the strum rather than the overall dynamic.)

    These are actually professional contemporary/modern jazz players I'm talking about, probably much better players overall than me, who ask me for a rhythm lesson or when we have a go at playing an old school style tune together! It's nothing to do with their musicianship or technique; it's just experience of that specific music. There's comparable stuff if you are learning to play funk or samba patterns etc...

    In fact, the more correct accent will probably creep in naturally! It's a bit like one of the best ways to work on swing 8ths is to avoid trying to swing. The body picks up on what the ear is hearing often without need for conscious effort, if everything is relaxed...

    What may be more of a long term problem is efficient biomechanics which you really need if you are playing rhythm for, say, 3 or 4 swing dance sets a night. I used to do this... It's physical work! You need a good relaxed strumming hand...

  14. #38

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    Counter Tenor Line - Freddie Green Style-gretablah-jpeg

    Get your finger out - you only need one - and play something

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Donovan, turn down your metronome!
    No volume control amigo! next time ill put the speaker pointed in to my leg.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Counter Tenor Line - Freddie Green Style-gretablah-jpeg

    Get your finger out - you only need one - and play something
    Well, swing rhythm guitar is kind of my job! What a cheek haha. Give me some money.

    Free is reserved for whatever stuff that I’m obsessed with that no one in their right mind would part with money to hear.

    That said I haven’t done the one note thing for ages, I had a quick crack at it today, a bit rusty.

    It’s the sort of thing I used to practice on gigs when I was bored after the fourth consecutive hour of medium tempo 4/4.I reckon that’s how FG worked on it too. I don’t think there was ever much need to practice this stuff at home, I was playing 200+ shows of it a year.

  17. #41

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    There you go


    You can hear I’m doing the one note thing here at the start, moving into full chords towards the end

  18. #42

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    Ah, you were young then

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Ah now you are asking for scholarship.

    Mr Stout is my source for the GVE connection but it may well be via Reuss now I think about it. Maybe Jonathan will chip in?
    This interesting article notes a Green/Reuss connection: The Captivating Harlem Swing Rhythms of Freddie Green, John Trueheart, Bernard Addison, Morris White, and Al Casey | Acoustic Guitar

    Specifically: "For his part, Green continued to refine his approach to rhythm guitar throughout his career, which later included elements learned from Benny Goodman’s guitarist Allan Reuss, but most importantly was based on years of dedication to his craft as well as devotion to the tradition of swing rhythm guitar."

    I believe I have seen a more detailed account of their relationship in a biographical piece on Green, but haven't been able to locate it recently.

  20. #44

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    Some of Freddie’s great playing on these 2 albums that not many people talk about. Small setting with some of the best cats. I love these 2 albums. You can hear Freddie clearly.
    Attached Images Attached Images Counter Tenor Line - Freddie Green Style-b8d5b5bc-e3aa-421f-883f-001a730be879-jpeg Counter Tenor Line - Freddie Green Style-728435b4-d2ad-4538-bb39-7d325a320fad-png 

  21. #45

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    Trying the single note tenor line for the first chorus and some chords in the second