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hi guys
I would like to ask you guys if you could share some tips in relation to how to connect voicings effectively on guitar if you want to play jazz music. I heard about voice leading concept according to which thirds and sevenths in 2-5-1 progressions resolve accoring to the rule of closest distance possible. The idea of common tones seems effective to because you when two chords share the same one or more notes it is comfortable to connect those chords. Can you share any more tips that could be useful for connecting voicings and chords effectively?
any comments will be highly appreciated
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03-13-2010 11:32 AM
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The 3rds and 7ths thing is from the stone ages, good general practice but not very hip on guitar... For jazz comping you need to voice a line on top that works with what ever your playing. Harmony and typical resolutions can be implied or actually played. If your accompanying a melodic, keep the attention on the melodic. Some heads stand up by themselves, others need help, when in doubt...stay out of the way. But the lead or top note still needs to work with melody, harmonically and rhythmically. A common tone technique that works pretty cool is to pedal a note on top through a section, or ostinato( short melodic phrase) over a section of a tune. Line Cliches are great for creating harmonic movement. The notes under the top are the result of the context of what your playing. Solo playing is a totally different conception, you either memorize or know what your doing. Much more complicated to explain... Reg
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[quote=Reg;70754]The 3rds and 7ths thing is from the stone ages, good general practice but not very hip on guitar... For jazz comping you need to voice a line on top that works with what ever your playing.
Can you explain to me in more detailed way the concept of voicing a line on top that works.....Can you give any examples of this concept?
Harmony and typical resolutions can be implied or actually played.
Can you describe this concept ?
Can you provide an example?
If your accompanying a melodic, keep the attention on the melodic.
Need help on this one.
Some heads stand up by themselves, others need help, when in doubt...stay out of the way.
What are ' heads ' here?
But the lead or top note still needs to work with melody, harmonically and rhythmically.
What does it mean that top note ' works' with melody harmonically and melodically?
A common tone technique that works pretty cool is to pedal a note on top through a section, or ostinato( short melodic phrase) over a section of a tune. Line Cliches are great for creating harmonic movement. The notes under the top are the result of the context of what your playing.
Don't get this one either.
Solo playing is a totally different conception, you either memorize or know what your doing. Much more complicated to explain...
I know I asked you for a lot of explanation. If you think you have enough time etc and energy to answer few of those questions again I will be very happyLast edited by rafapak; 03-17-2010 at 05:07 AM.
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Hey rafapac... how goes... I'll try
Top note is the top or highest note of the chord your playing.[chord]
Example; D-9 / G7alt /C6/9
D-9
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---| The note played by 4th
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---| finger is lead note "E"
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| which goes to,
||---|---|---|---|--2|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
[chord]
D-9/11
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| "G", played by barred
||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---| 1st finger. Still D-, the
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---| G is the 11th, now
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| goes to,
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
[chord]
G7#9/b13
||---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---| Bb played by 4th finger
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| The chord is now G7 alt
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| The lead note now
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| goes to,
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
[chord]
G7b13
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| "Eb", played by 4th
||---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| finger, is b13 of Galt
||---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| which now goes to,
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
[chord]
C6/9
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| "D", the 9th of C6/9
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---| played by 3rd finger
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord] In the example, the 3rd & 7th of D-,(F & C), go to the 7th and 3rd ( F & B ) of G7alt and then to the 3rd and 6th, ( E & A ) of C6/9,
The 6th because their is no 7th in C6/9. I showed typ. inner voice leading but the top note is what you hear most. If there was a melody, I would need to make sure my lead line on top worked with it. RegLast edited by Reg; 03-19-2010 at 09:25 AM.
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thanks reg, I am doing ok. I feel a bit frustrated because I am kind of a guy who needs to understand playing before playing . Well, I have trouble to just follow instructions without seeing greater picture of how stuff that I learn now will be used later. Therefore I ask questions. You helped me to make next step as far as understanding guitar playing. Some people are suprised when when you ask question instead of just following instructions automatically. They never explain why they teach you this or that. I need to know how stuff that I learn today will be used tomorrow. Thanks for your help.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Reg,
When you include those fretboard diagrams, make sure to delete a dash ("-") character whenever you put in a number, otherwise you end up with too many characters in a line and the frets don't line up. If you put in two numerals (for frets 10 and greater), you have to delete two dashes. :-)
Thanks
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I think you have very good questions, and I also like to understand things. That's the great thing about these discussion boards. We can get help to understand. Originally Posted by rafapak
Another interesting element of connecting voicings is the passing chords / approach chords. There is a bit about these in some books, but I still don't have the understanding that I would prefer. Anyone?
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An interesting page I found on passing chords:
Originally Posted by http://www.harmony.org.uk/book/functional_harmony_passing_chords.htm
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Thanks FatJeff... I'ss get's it... That will clean it up, thanks again Reg Originally Posted by FatJeff
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Hey rafapac... The passing chord page appears to be centuries old contrapuntal and voice leading info... Jazz is much hipper, we actually understand most of the the functional and harmonic material and like a lot of the old don't do's . We know the world's not flat...we won't fall off... sorry... I have gig to play, when I get back I will do my best to explain passing and approach chords and their functions in jazz terms, it's pretty simple...Reg
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Looking forward to it Originally Posted by Reg
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The stuff I've digged up from a few books:
Hal Crook ”How to comp”.
Passing chords - two types of passing chords:
1.Exact constant structure voicings, 1/2 step (chromatic embellishment / approaches) above or below (or any step above or below as harmonic embellishment).
2.Diatonic constant structure voicings, one step above or below (or any step above or below as harmonic embellishment).
Process of using passing chord in comping:
1.For each chord select a chord scale
2.Construct one voicing
3.Approach the chord voicing using exact or diatonic constant structure voicing one step above or below (or any step above or below as harmonic embellishment).
Brett Willmott “Mel Bay’s complete book of harmony theory and voicing”.
Approach voicings:
1.Diatonic:
a.Relative to the key or mode of the momentb.Resolve to the chord being approached by a diatonic step.2.Chromatic:
a.Same voicing as the chord being approachedb.A half step above or below that chord3.Dominant :
a.Voicing having a dominant relation to the chord being approached
----
I've tried to study Chromatic and Dominant approach chords a bit. They sound great.
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as an aside, can we make it an unwritten rule to just do chords like this?
Emajor: 022100
A7: 575655
Ebmaj7: x6878x
Bb13b9: 6x6787
finger #'s are gonna be either obvious or up to the players discretion anyway.
back to topic, there's a lot of good advice in this thread, and although the 3rd/7th bit may be old, it's still damn effective in a big band or in an organ combo.
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+1. You can fit several chords on a single line versus needing 6 plus lines for a single chord. When you go above fret 9 I use dots: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
10.x.9.10.10.12 (Dmi9/6)
And if you want to indicate fingering, how about this?
10.x.9.10.10.12 (Dmi9/6)
_2___1__3__3__4 [fingering]
A fixed-width font helps there!
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rafapack wrote "I need to know how stuff that I learn today will be used tomorrow."
It's good to try to understand a concept before working on it but I've found that until I do something repeatedly I don't get the full understanding.
Over the years I've come to the conclusion that sometimes practicing is an act of faith that if I do this for long enough my mental light bulb will blink on. I fugure the least I'll gain from the practice of working on something new is I'm exercising my mind and hands to do something different. I find, especially with jazz, that you have to have a bit of faith that if you work on something it will reward you in the future.
Just an opinion. YMMV
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Hwy gersdal... or rafapac etc... In simple terms passing chords link neighboring chords of a determined organized system, approach chords have unprepared motion. The determined system can be as simple as diatonic chords or as complex as any thing you come up with. Major7 chord ascending in maj.2nds is my determined organizational system, I insert Min.7th chords between each Maj7th chord. The Min7th chords are passing chords. Could have duel function... but because there is a system of organization I would call them passing chords. Approach chords are any chords that approach a chord in a predetermined chord sequence by unprepared motion. They can be as simple as chromatic constant structure, they can be ascending, descending, auxiliary( having same root as target chord). Can have any function, Dom., sub-dom., etc... Can also have duel or more than one function. Obviously these are not traditional contrapuntal, harmonic, theoretical or voice leading principles and are not intended to be so... In practical use... You usually have in your bag of comping techniques, chords you use as standard passing and approach chords. Eventually these chords become chord sequences etc... and when you see a simple 4 chord progression it can become 20 chords. When you become proficient, know one notices. That's a way to approach soloing also, instead of calling notes chromatic approach notes, they become part of the harmonic structure and have function and organization. Best Reg
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Cool. I didn't know there was a difference. Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks. I'll have to try that out. Originally Posted by Reg
Would be great to see your bag of approach chords Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks a lot. Would be cool to see (and discuss) some examples. Originally Posted by Reg
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An example for discussion could be:
ChopsFactory-Jazz Guitar Chords
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An example for discussion could be:
ChopsFactory-Jazz Guitar Chords
The first example shows the use of chromatic constant structure between the Cm7 and F7 (although the Gb7 is also a tritone substitution for a C7 that again would be the dominant of the F7). The F13b9 is IMO an approach chord to the Bbmaj7, and has a great voice leading into the Bbmaj7 chord. Is that an "auxiliary" in your description Reg?
In the second example tritone substitutions of the secondary dominant for the final chord is used in both cases, but they are also both chromatic approach chords.
The third example shows the use of chromatic constant structure passing chord.
In general the examples seem to be mostly:
- Chromatic constant structure
- Secondary dominants (and tritone substitutions of these)
What would your bag of tricks result in for the same examples, Reg? Or others?Last edited by gersdal; 03-19-2010 at 06:12 AM.
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Approach chords are called passing chords a lot... doesn't really matter... but to some there is a difference...Reg Originally Posted by gersdal
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Any books that say anything about this difference? Originally Posted by Reg
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Most of the time when you approach a chord, as in the C6/9 voice leading example I posted earlier, if you approach with a Dom. chord, you can add the related II- chord. Example; You Have, E6/9 / A13 / Dmaj9 /. med tempo 120.
Usually on the 1st bar or the strong beat of strong weak rhythm pattern phrases you don't do much...
E6/9 x7667x beats 1,2,3 of 1st bar
Bb13 6x678x beat 4 of 1st bar
A13sus 5x577x beat 1 of 2nd bar
A7b13 5x566x beat 2 of 2nd bar
Eb6/9 x6556x 1st quarter of quarter note triplet on beats 3&4,2nd bar
A7b13#9 xx5668 2nd quarter note "
Eb9#11 xx5665 3rd quarter note "
Dmaj9 x5465x beat 1 of 3rd bar
Instead of using the II- chord, I made the V chord a Sus, same function, like putting a A under the E-7 or II- chord. changed the A13 chord through modal interchange, helped create better inner lines. and played around with Sub V's . All done on the weak side of rhythmic strong/ weak pattern. So I took pretty simple chord pattern and used bag of tricks to 1) create rhythmic interest, by accenting weak side of pulse I create stronger motion,2) harmonically, again on weak side, created more tension to resolve and in doing so I created, 3) better melodic movement, my lead line and also my inner voices. If their was a head or melody, all this would have to work with it. Best RegLast edited by Reg; 03-19-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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There are many references, from traditional sources, the earlier you go the more their related to contrapuntal techniques. Leon Dallin's "Techniques of Twentieth Century Composition", Persichhetti's "Twentieth-Century Harmony", touches on the subject. Research Parallel Harmony, Modal Harmony, Chromatic Cadenced and early treatments of modulation to get a traditional background. Berklee has some reference material. Read some jazz educators periodicals for more up to date info. At some point you need to do analysis of jazz compositions, and see for your self what and how traditional and non traditional techniques were and are used in jazz composition. It does take a lot of time... I'll try and pull up some current info. and post... Good luck Reg
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Thanks a lot. Very nice sounding! Originally Posted by Reg
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Thanks, Reg.
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