Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 31
  1. #1
    Hey gang,

    Say you've got a iii-vi-ii-V (C#m9 / F#7 / Bm13 / E9#5) resolving on A major

    The vi chord is dominant.

    The song is in E but the iii-vi-ii-V progression is leading to the IV chord.


    How do I explain that vi7? There seems to be a V to I relationship between it and Bm13 but beyond that I'm at a loss.

    I've heard this sorta thing explained as "F#7 is the V of ii of IV" . I've spent the last 30 mins trying to decipher that quote.
    Any help would be more than appreciated!! Thanks a ton!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Any chord can be preceeded by its own dominant 7th chord, even if it occupies the root position of a diatonic chord. This is known as a Secondary Dominant.
    If a piece is heavy on the cycle of 5ths (III VI II V I) or any variation within, they can be diatonic, but also if you want to use an interesting variation that has the root stability of the diatonic (major and minor) root progression, you can use a dominant instead.
    Take a look at What Is This Thing Called Love or All Of Me for example. Smooth sounding root movement but a little edgy with a compelling sense of movement.
    Explore Secondary Dominants. They're an essential part of jazz harmony.
    Hope this addresses your question.

  4. #3
    Thank you! Well, it's certainly a heck of a lot easier understanding it this way than to attempting to reverse engineer the meaning of "V of ii of IV"

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Exactly the same progression occurs in the 'A' section of John Lewis' Milestones. I just posted my chart in another thread:

    JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 33) - Milestones (Old)

    In that instance, it's inserted into a Bb major environment although it could be regarded as a preface to the bridge that follows a few bars later in A major.
    Last edited by PMB; 08-29-2021 at 11:18 PM.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretty Krueger
    Hey gang,

    Say you've got a iii-vi-ii-V (C#m9 / F#7 / Bm13 / E9#5) resolving on A major

    The vi chord is dominant.

    The song is in E but the iii-vi-ii-V progression is leading to the IV chord.


    How do I explain that vi7? There seems to be a V to I relationship between it and Bm13 but beyond that I'm at a loss.

    I've heard this sorta thing explained as "F#7 is the V of ii of IV" . I've spent the last 30 mins trying to decipher that quote.
    Any help would be more than appreciated!! Thanks a ton!

    Warning: Brain damage alert. Don't blame me, you asked the question!


    Be very simple. Put it in C. Then you have

    Em - A7 - Dm - G7 - C

    Em is the iii chord

    A7 is a secondary dominant. Secondary dominants are when you change a minor chord in the key into a dominant. So Am becomes A7.

    The Dm is the ii chord

    If you have changed the Am into A7 then the A7 becomes the V chord of Dm, right? But the tune's not in D minor, it's in C. The A7 - Dm is within the whole progression of chords leading to C.

    So the A7 is called the 'V of ii'.

    The G7 is not a secondary dominant, it's the actual V chord leading to the tonic, C. So

    Dm - G7 - C

    is just

    ii - V - I

    ---------------------

    Also, let's say the Em was also made into a secondary dominant. Then you get

    E7 - A7 - Dm - G7 - C

    Then the E7 would be called the V of the VI7 chord (because the A7 is also a secondary dominant)

    The Dm could also be made into a secondary dominant, so the whole sequence would look like

    E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - C

    Then the D7 would become the V of the V chord (because G7 is the V).

    So that complete sequence could be written

    V7/VI7 - V7/II7 - II7/V7 - V7 - IM7

    (But, let's be honest, it's a lot easier to just write out the chords).

    -------------------

    IMPORTANT: In your example, you say the tune is in E and the sequence you've given ends on the IV chord. In that case you'll have to write out everything in terms of E as the tonic key, not A.

    The chords in E major are

    E - F#m - G#m - A - B7 - C#m - D#m7b5 - E

    which is

    I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii - I


    Your example is

    C#m - F#7 - Bm - E7 - A

    So, in terms of E major, that's

    vi - II7 - v - I7 - IV

    Or you could write it

    ii of II7 - V7 of v - ii of I7 - IV

    (at which point I'd shoot myself because it's become ridiculous )

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    [QUOTE=Fretty Krueger;1143345\]

    The song is in E but the iii-vi-ii-V progression is leading to the IV chord.

    [/QUOTE]

    The song might be in E, but this progression is like a turn around in A. And if you are looking for temporary key centers you've got descending iim7-V7's . So c#m9 - F#7 is Bmaj, and b m13 - E7 is Amaj. How fast does it go by? That's a factor as is the melody.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Fretty Krueger
    Hey gang,

    Say you've got a iii-vi-ii-V (C#m9 / F#7 / Bm13 / E9#5) resolving on A major

    The vi chord is dominant.

    The song is in E but the iii-vi-ii-V progression is leading to the IV chord.


    How do I explain that vi7? There seems to be a V to I relationship between it and Bm13 but beyond that I'm at a loss.

    I've heard this sorta thing explained as "F#7 is the V of ii of IV" . I've spent the last 30 mins trying to decipher that quote.
    Any help would be more than appreciated!! Thanks a ton!
    Its a somewhat embellished way of going I7-IV or E7 - A

    This happens a lot in standards. You could use E7 or Bm7 E7 or the full 6-2-5-1; it just depends how much time you’ve got to set it up and how flowery you want to make it. Have a look at different versions of a tune like ‘I Thought About You’ or ‘Sweet Lorraine’ that has a move like this and you’ll see different versions of this move. You could use the progression in bars 3-4 of an E blues; in fact if you look at ‘Blues for Alice’ you’ll see this embellishment in the key of F moving to Bb (Dm-G7-Cm-F7)

    So I suspect you understand that part.

    As far as what the VI7 chord is doing there, you are using a chromatic embellishment of diatonic harmony in the inner voices if we look at it from the temporary key/scale of A (IV)
    B-A#-A-G#
    2-#1-1-7

    You can call that F#7 a secondary dominant if you want but it’s really just an embellishment, a weak side passing chord of little harmonic consequence.

    You could also use, for example
    C#m7 Co7 Bm7 E7

    C#m7 Cm7 Bm7 E7
    to achieve the same purpose using slightly different chromatic embellishments. Both of these versions are also common in standards. It really depends on what the melody will allow; for instance if the melody is on F# you would choose F#7 or the Co7 but not the Cm7.

    When you’re soloing you can swap between one or the other (if you make sure you resolve clearly on the A chord.)

    i don’t really like functional analysis for the this reason, beyond very basic blocking out of the main harmonic regions of a song (I IV V for a blues, say.) I think these embellishments like back cycle/chromatic descending things are often conceived in counterpoint to the melody rather than Roman numeral stuff.

    Ive found it most helpful to look at a lot of standard tunes and take account of what the melody and inner voices are doing. Chromatic inner voice movement is often a decoration of simpler harmony.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-30-2021 at 07:06 AM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    if you are looking for temporary key centres
    If?

    Are you saying using the tonic key and temporary key centres are both equally valid ways of notating this?

    So in

    A7 - Dm - G7 - C

    The A7 can be called the V7 of i, not ii?

    I'd call that confusing. The progression is in C, Dm is the ii, and A7 is the V of that ii. I'd say that made perfect sense.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Check out "In a Sentimental mood".
    In the B-part, there is I-vi-ii-V7, followed by I-VI7-II7-V7.. the dominants make the segment kinda "pushy" and add lots of energy.
    I'ts very common to make them all dominants. Happens like every other tune or something.. um, not that often but well, a lot.

    When composing, you can always choose if to use D7 instead the vanilla M7 of m7. Then this chord becomes temporary dominant that wants to resolve to temporary tonic.
    Works on all chords of the scale. Even tonic itself.
    Dunno if its the correct english now .

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I don't know what the fuss is about. In C, the OP's progression is

    Am - D7 - Gm - C7
    F -

    It's just a temporary modulation into F. The D7 is only a sec dom, not a modulation.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I don't know what the fuss is about. In C, the OP's progression is

    Am - D7 - Gm - C7
    F -

    It's just a temporary modulation into F. The D7 is only a sec dom, not a modulation.
    "Fuss"-ing is a huge preoccupation when it comes to jazz justifiers. It's a rite of passage.
    Now actually using these ideas in phrases that don't sound like Fussing, that's a whole different game. :-)

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Yea.... you want to play Jazz, You need to understand basic Functional music guidelines and typical Jazz functional terminology.

    The sequence or pattern of chords you posted.... eventually is just labeled... a "Chord Pattern". III VI II V. It's not just used in many tunes.... when you play jazz... the Chord Pattern is used in almost any tune you play.

    The actual type of chords... that Chord Pattern actually uses...can change almost any time.

    Eventually... you don't think, hear or label the Chord pattern as individual chords with individual functional labels...
    It becomes and functions like One Chord. Like a lick, but a chord lick.... a Chord Pattern.

    Just like you can play melodic patterns that have harmonic, melodic and rhythmic musical organization.... a Lick, Chord patterns works the same way. Chord Patterns are Chord Licks.

    And eventually.... you'll use and hear different versions of that Chord Patterns that will work and help you learn how to not just play jazz tunes... but be able to play in a jazz style.

    And part of developing these basic jazz performance skills is going through the many possible Functional labeling of the actual chords. Different labels tend to use different tonal Targets from which Functional Labels are created.

    Simply meaning you can have any one of the chords in a Chord Pattern.... be the tonal Target... the Reference from which you create the Functional labels... Or the implied target of any of those chords, as in your example..."A".

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    for me these chord patterns can be turnarounds ..going from the Tonic to another chord or going to the Tonic..in that travel the pattern can and many times does go to another chord not in the tonic key.

    Here is where your diatonic harmonic knowledge is used alot..throw in inversions of some chords and your off to the races..so to speak.

    on progressions like these I have to convert my thinking to roman numeral format..ii7 V7 is the same in EVERY key..Dmi7 G7 is not

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen

    on progressions like these I have to convert my thinking to roman numeral format..ii7 V7 is the same in EVERY key..Dmi7 G7 is not
    Amen!

  16. #15
    Awesome, ragman. Thank you!!
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1

    Warning: Brain damage alert. Don't blame me, you asked the question!


    Be very simple. Put it in C. Then you have

    Em - A7 - Dm - G7 - C

    Em is the iii chord

    A7 is a secondary dominant. Secondary dominants are when you change a minor chord in the key into a dominant. So Am becomes A7.

    The Dm is the ii chord

    If you have changed the Am into A7 then the A7 becomes the V chord of Dm, right? But the tune's not in D minor, it's in C. The A7 - Dm is within the whole progression of chords leading to C.

    So the A7 is called the 'V of ii'.

    The G7 is not a secondary dominant, it's the actual V chord leading to the tonic, C. So

    Dm - G7 - C

    is just

    ii - V - I

    ---------------------

    Also, let's say the Em was also made into a secondary dominant. Then you get

    E7 - A7 - Dm - G7 - C

    Then the E7 would be called the V of the VI7 chord (because the A7 is also a secondary dominant)

    The Dm could also be made into a secondary dominant, so the whole sequence would look like

    E7 - A7 - D7 - G7 - C

    Then the D7 would become the V of the V chord (because G7 is the V).

    So that complete sequence could be written

    V7/VI7 - V7/II7 - II7/V7 - V7 - IM7

    (But, let's be honest, it's a lot easier to just write out the chords).

    -------------------

    IMPORTANT: In your example, you say the tune is in E and the sequence you've given ends on the IV chord. In that case you'll have to write out everything in terms of E as the tonic key, not A.

    The chords in E major are

    E - F#m - G#m - A - B7 - C#m - D#m7b5 - E

    which is

    I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii - I


    Your example is

    C#m - F#7 - Bm - E7 - A

    So, in terms of E major, that's

    vi - II7 - v - I7 - IV

    Or you could write it

    ii of II7 - V7 of v - ii of I7 - IV

    (at which point I'd shoot myself because it's become ridiculous )

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    The answer is into the Rhythm Changes and some Bebop blues progression.
    You don't have to think, it's just made like this. Cycle of fifths, very tonal music with the add of dominant chords tension and release chromatic descending motion, chords without a root too.
    CM7 rootless is Em

    D C# C B

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Yea Wolf... roman numerals , I forget that some don't actually think that way. It's just been a given for decades for me and most of the working musicians I run into etc... I naturally always think roman numerals as well as chord symbols. And always large case... haven't really used small case since with jazz etc... for 50+ years.

    But I also forget that most musicians... just don't have musical backgrounds ... and those of us that are are lucky enough to have musical backgrounds need to take the time to go through the learning process or steps as well as the possible end games.

    Rag... personally it's not really a temporary Modulation, because the new key is not implied. The tonic doesn't change.

    It's / III- ...VI7... / II- ..V7../ of IV (A)

    You can play the III- VI7 as a II V / II- , But that does imply different extensions and different possibilities of how to approach performing. And would still not be a temporary Modulation. I can go on etc... But you have your style and it it's cool and just what it is...

    Just for basic music info....
    Secondary Doms are V's of diatonic chords
    Extended Doms are sequences or series of V7 chords
    Cycles have many possibilities ...
    Last edited by Reg; 08-31-2021 at 12:15 PM.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    reg...these days I mostly teach theory/harmony to those that have been playing for years and have no idea what basic music mechanics is..but they can play pent scales fast.

    But after a while they get bored and even angry with there own limitations..I went through that door many years ago. I am sure you have seen many use theoretical analysis to rip apart a tune
    and conclude it is in 2 or 3 different keys even though no other key is fully established..the tune Heres That Rainy Day comes to mind.

    for me the entire tune is in the Key of G major...OHHH no say some ..its in Eb as well...and some even want to add Ab..now I could argue my case..but why..if they play it and THINK they are in several other keys in a tune and it works for them..why ruin a good day trying to prove water really is wet.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Key signatures are just a starting reference for tonal centricity (key center) which is based on home base more than it is about places visited along the way. In jazz, even when the melody doesn't involve accidentals, the harmony can engage some or all of the remaining 5 notes. Conceptually, secondary dominants, leading tone diminished chords, modal interchange material beyond scale content can be described as being borrowed from another scale but still acting in the service of key center prime. On the micro level, the notes beyond key signature can resemble a modulation but tonal centers are understood on the big picture, macro level. As players, part of our task is to learn to organize chromatic content orbiting around a major, minor or dominant tonal center.

    ....... On the other hand, modulations do exist ..... discussion for another day.

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    I think of there being some atomic ideas, like secondary dominants and tritone substitutions, that can be combined like Legos. String together a couple secondary dominants and you've got back cycling.

    The "ladybird" turnaround is backcycling from a tritone substitution for the V chord:

    (In C)

    | CMaj7 Eb7 | AbMaj7 Db7 || CMaj7...

    Some folks play those as all major 7ths -- what's that called? "Just because"?

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Yea the better you are as a player or better you understand harmony.... the more options one has to add or expand the changes... or solos etc...

    If Freddie K would post the tune....a simple analysis would show possibilities.

    But generally.... sometimes labeled contiguous II V's are simple Chord Pattern that use the Target of the Chord Pattern,
    in the example The "A" maj. as the Target. The IV chord if the key is as said..."E maj."

    If a chart... implies either a modulation or has other tonal organization going on... simple analysis process will easily show possible harmonic organization.... the melody, form etc...

    But with general performance of any tune... in a jazz style, Chord patters are very standard and part of jazz performance. It's just part of playing in a jazz style. I know I've posted examples of this a few times...

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Actually, treating them as chord patterns seems more practical than analyzing them to death.
    Stacking 4 dominants closely together - the player will never think about being in a new key. It's color? So, why analyze at all...

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    Actually, treating them as chord patterns seems more practical than analyzing them to death.
    Stacking 4 dominants closely together - the player will never think about being in a new key. It's color? So, why analyze at all...
    LOL... that's the point, the analysis was finished long ago...

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    So, why analyze at all...
    I was wondering that too. Maybe some teacher/course/book told him to learn the roman numeral stuff. Or the course is using it and he doesn't understand it.

  26. #25
    Lot’s of good explanations here. It think rag’s it the clearest. The question that needs asking now it how to play over the changes. If only that F#7 was F#m7, right? If each chord is two beats you have a turnaround, so you outline the chords. You can treat the F#7 as a altered chord resolving to Bm7. Keep it as one phrase resolving to the I chord Amaj7. There are plenty of stock phrases out there where you will get ideas of how to play over these changes. It is one of the most important progressions in jazz, and being able to play fluidly over the changes is the important thing.
    Last edited by Victor Saumarez; 09-09-2021 at 06:26 AM.