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  1. #1

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    hi all, long time no post from me.

    i was finding guitar a bit of a drag and my lack of progress was bothering me so been trying to just play along to as much stuff as i can , not worrying too much of what works and why and let me ears guide me a bit more. I think its been worthwhile and ive realised theres a hell of a lot that can be got out of limiting yourself to what you know!

    anyway, ive been digging herbie hancocks funk stuff a long recently. i'm encountering a particular sound a lot and im a bit lost on what to do when it comes up. The example below is from 'hang up your hang ups' from the man child album. (incidentally, sounds like snarky puppy just ripped a whooooole load of this sound off!)

    the tune is mostly based around E7 and you can get away with a lot of fairly simple funk dominant vocab for the majority. To my plain ears it sounds like herbie (and all soloists) are throwing in outside playing alongside the more typical stuff that goes way beyond my understanding but thats a side topic.

    however at around 5.20 the tune changes and i cant really satisfy myself with anything to get me through this part of the tune. I'm hearing a G root, (with an ascending slide bass motif idea that seems to reinforce the G as home) but then I can also hear what i think is an E going to Eb in the guide tones. Is it sort of like a C dominant going to C minor?

    can anybody please shed some light on what they would do here?

    many thanks




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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Sounds like G7 to F7 over a G pedal. Or G7 to C minor over a G pedal. (Much the same thing.)

    For me, the easiest way to solo over this would be to play D minor lines over the first chord, and C minor lines over the second chord. (I tend to find minor lines easiest, a bit like Pat Martino!)

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Sounds like G7 to F7 over a G pedal. Or G7 to C minor over a G pedal. (Much the same thing.)

    For me, the easiest way to solo over this would be to play D minor lines over the first chord, and C minor lines over the second chord. (I tend to find minor lines easiest, a bit like Pat Martino!)
    thanks for the response.

    ah ok! the G pedal makes it kinda ambiguous, I wasnt sure if it was a chord i wasnt too familiar with but that makes sense why i was struggling to find consitent chord tones that worked if its two chords close together.

    I was actually trialling D minor actually so wasnt too far off. Playing up and down a tone sounds sensible. cheers!

  5. #4

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    You can explore G mixolydian here too, and side step a bunch too...that would be my "this came up and I had never heard it and someone pointed at me to solo and I needed to survive" angle.

    F and G triad pairs, or Em and Dm, or Graham's approach work great too.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    You can explore G mixolydian here too, and side step a bunch too...that would be my "this came up and I had never heard it and someone pointed at me to solo and I needed to survive" angle.

    F and G triad pairs, or Em and Dm, or Graham's approach work great too.
    thanks very much. ha thats exactly the type of angle i want to assimilate to start getting SOMEthing out of years of staring at a fretboard without getting much in return

  7. #6

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    Herbie must like that sound (a chord going down a whole tone over a pedal), you often hear it in his tunes and in his comping.

  8. #7
    yes, ive noticed the sound quite a bit now and im always a bit lost as to what hes doing exactly. will listen out for it more and more now!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Herbie must like that sound (a chord going down a whole tone over a pedal), you often hear it in his tunes and in his comping.
    When I see a major chord over a bass note that is a whole step higher, I think of a suspended chord built on the bass note.

    For instance, F/G can be looked at as Gsus. Herbie seemed to use a lot of stacked 4th chords (especially in the 60s), so this seems like a part of that thinking.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    When I see a major chord over a bass note that is a whole step higher, I think of a suspended chord built on the bass note.

    For instance, F/G can be looked at as Gsus. Herbie seemed to use a lot of stacked 4th chords (especially in the 60s), so this seems like a part of that thinking.
    i havent really delved into suspended chords yet. laymans terms, is the idea that they have:

    - ambigious sound
    - not really 'settled' i.e wants to resolve somewhere, but also not harsh sounding like a chord with a lot of altered notes ?

    ive always seen them in pop/folk - Like adding a 4th to a major chord so i always thought of them as quite weak sounding? never approached them in a jazz context

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    i havent really delved into suspended chords yet. laymans terms, is the idea that they have:

    - ambigious sound
    - not really 'settled' i.e wants to resolve somewhere, but also not harsh sounding like a chord with a lot of altered notes ?

    ive always seen them in pop/folk - Like adding a 4th to a major chord so i always thought of them as quite weak sounding? never approached them in a jazz context
    here you go:

    What sound is Herbie Hancock hanging on here?-49dcc010-7a6d-43d2-9f3b-ceab0ed24c3c-jpeg

  12. #11

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    "Sounds like G7 to F7 over a G pedal. " grahambop

    Hi, G,
    Very common 1/4/5;2/5/1 Funk modulation in my day. We used this(modulate to F or A from G) occasionally on instrumentals with a long solos to finish a tune then . . . stairstep to the tonic for the final major/minor 7th chord: trumpets/guitars/B3 playing the top; trombone/Tenor/Bass on the bottom. However, in most Funk, it's just a simple modulation
    Play live . . . Marinero

  13. #12

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    Suspended chords had to resolve, until April of 1965.

  14. #13

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    We played a full James Brown Review for years and we used this common modulation from many of his songs. He uses it here at 3:47.
    Play live . . . Marinero



    P.S. Also check out: Papa Don't Take No Mess, Get on the Good Foot, etc. God, I miss those Shake Dancers!
    M

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "Sounds like G7 to F7 over a G pedal. " grahambop

    Hi, G,
    Very common 1/4/5;2/5/1 Funk modulation in my day. We used this(modulate to F or A from G) occasionally on instrumentals with a long solos to finish a tune then . . . stairstep to the tonic for the final major/minor 7th chord: trumpets/guitars/B3 playing the top; trombone/Tenor/Bass on the bottom. However, in most Funk, it's just a simple modulation
    Play live . . . Marinero
    hi marinero

    thanks for the reply - its all very helpful but getting a bit confused now! are you saying in the tune i posted that from 5.20 onwards (til the end) they are vamping over a G7 to F7 with G pedal to go to a different key to play out the end of the song (and that that is a common variation that funk bands do..)

    OR, that they are using the G7 & f7 at 5.20 to modulate to something else that they then play until the end of the song?

    also whats 'stair stepping?'

    great hearing stories from the bandstand btw

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    We played a full James Brown Review for years and we used this common modulation from many of his songs. He uses it here at 3:47.
    Play live . . . Marinero



    P.S. Also check out: Papa Don't Take No Mess, Get on the Good Foot, etc. God, I miss those Shake Dancers!
    M
    I bet it was great playing those gigs!

    havent listened to james brown in a while. I am familiar with those tunes though, will revisit!

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by basinstreet
    hi marinero

    thanks for the reply - its all very helpful but getting a bit confused now! are you saying in the tune i posted that from 5.20 onwards (til the end) they are vamping over a G7 to F7 with G pedal to go to a different key to play out the end of the song (and that that is a common variation that funk bands do..)

    OR, that they are using the G7 & f7 at 5.20 to modulate to something else that they then play until the end of the song?

    also whats 'stair stepping?'

    great hearing stories from the bandstand btw
    Hi, B,
    Sorry for the confusion! I listened to the piece one time. It was, for me, an obvious modulation down a step at 5:20. As I mentioned, this is a very common Funk technique. However, I don't know what Graham means about the "pedal." Maybe he has better ears than me or studied the piece and I would suggest you ask him. I didn't get that involved.
    So, "stair stepping" is a slang we used in Chicago. "Sunny" by Bobby Hebb is a variation (upward) of this technique as well as others used by many Funk bands during instrumentals giving soloists an opportunity to improvise in other keys. I have often said many times on this Forum that Funk/R@B/Soul gave talented instrumentalists many opportunities for improvisation and was a great experience/background for playing Jazz. I hope this answers you question.

    Play live . . . Marinero



    P.S. Looks like Cornell Dupree playing with Bobby.

  18. #17
    ah right thanks, im with you re stepping now, just prevents things from getting stale each time round! and a chance for the song to lift . cheers

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    However, I don't know what Graham means about the "pedal.".
    A pedal is just a bass note that stays the same while the chord above it changes.

    In this case they play G7 over a G bass note, then F7 over a G bass note. They just keep repeating this, like a sort of 2-chord vamp, it doesn’t modulate or go anywhere. This kind of sound is used by Herbie Hancock quite a lot, for example in the last few bars of ‘Dolphin Dance’.

    More details here:
    Pedal point - Wikipedia

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A pedal is just a bass note that stays the same while the chord above it changes.

    In this case they play G7 over a G bass note, then F7 over a G bass note. They just keep repeating this, like a sort of 2-chord vamp, it doesn’t modulate or go anywhere. This kind of sound is used by Herbie Hancock quite a lot, for example in the last few bars of ‘Dolphin Dance’.

    More details here:
    Pedal point - Wikipedia
    this was my initial understanding but wanted to check i hadnt misunderstood

    thanks graham

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A pedal is just a bass note that stays the same while the chord above it changes.

    In this case they play G7 over a G bass note, then F7 over a G bass note. They just keep repeating this, like a sort of 2-chord vamp, it doesn’t modulate or go anywhere. This kind of sound is used by Herbie Hancock quite a lot, for example in the last few bars of ‘Dolphin Dance’.

    More details here:
    Pedal point - Wikipedia
    Hi, G,
    Yes, of course, for the definition and use. Pedals are very common technique in horn bands during riffs-- especially effective when they have a B3. But, the F7 over a G bass note is what I missed. The ear hears F7 as a modulation and the G bass note creates the tension. Never used it in Funk since it would serve no real purpose, for me, harmonically for this genre since we usually stuck to the root of the modulation. I'll check out "Dolphin Dance." Thanks for the explanation, again.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Last edited by Marinero; 08-13-2021 at 08:54 AM. Reason: addition

  22. #21

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    O.K., Graham,
    Now you really have me confused! I just listened to Dolphin Dance(below) and only see two uses of pedals at 7:54 and at 8:55 ,at the end, as you mentioned. And, they're following the root of the chord with no tension as was the case in your previous remarks. What am I missing in this example?
    Play live . . . Marinero



  23. #22

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    I remember that album well. I was stationed in Philly and in the barracks of the Navy Base. I used to blast that album in ‘75 after it came out. It had a killer groove. I believe it was the second of a killer album line up from Herbie, the best being Headhunters from ‘73.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    O.K., Graham,
    Now you really have me confused! I just listened to Dolphin Dance(below) and only see two uses of pedals at 7:54 and at 8:55 ,at the end, as you mentioned. And, they're following the root of the chord with no tension as was the case in your previous remarks. What am I missing in this example?
    Play live . . . Marinero


    From 1:02 to 1:16. Listen to the bass.

    It’s the section marked ‘D’ on this chart:

    What sound is Herbie Hancock hanging on here?-9223f252-a8fc-4181-948e-a717d92a84be-jpeg

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A pedal is just a bass note that stays the same while the chord above it changes.

    In this case they play G7 over a G bass note, then F7 over a G bass note. They just keep repeating this, like a sort of 2-chord vamp, it doesn’t modulate or go anywhere. This kind of sound is used by Herbie Hancock quite a lot, for example in the last few bars of ‘Dolphin Dance’.

    More details here:
    Pedal point - Wikipedia
    Piano players commonly utilize pedal tones. Just listen to Keith Jarrett.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    From 1:02 to 1:16. Listen to the bass.

    It’s the section marked ‘D’ on this chart:

    What sound is Herbie Hancock hanging on here?-9223f252-a8fc-4181-948e-a717d92a84be-jpeg
    Hi, G,
    Thanks for the effort but your example still has the tonic/root in the bass. What am I missing?
    Play live . . . Marinero