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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, G,
    Thanks for the effort but your example still has the tonic/root in the bass. What am I missing?
    If you don’t understand it, there’s little more I can do about it.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    If you don’t understand it, there’s little more I can do about it.
    Hi, G,
    I'm not confused. In your post #2 you referred to a F7 over a G pedal. I do not hear that at all . . . simply the bass playing the tonic/root pedal at 1:02 to 1:16.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, G,
    I'm not confused. In your post #2 you referred to a F7 over a G pedal. I do not hear that at all . . . simply the bass playing the tonic/root pedal at 1:02 to 1:16.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    At 1:02 of Dolphin Dance the piano plays a Dmaj7 chord, while the bass plays an E note. In other words, Dmaj7 over E bass. Then they play Cmaj7 over an E bass note. And so on, it’s all shown in the chart I posted.

    If you really can’t hear this stuff, there’s nothing more I can say, I’ve tried to be as helpful as I could.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    At 1:02 of Dolphin Dance the piano plays a Dmaj7 chord, while the bass plays an E note. In other words, Dmaj7 over E bass. Then they play Cmaj7 over an E bass note. And so on, it’s all shown in the chart I posted.

    If you really can’t hear this stuff, there’s nothing more I can say, I’ve tried to be as helpful as I could.
    Hi, G,
    I don't want this to descend into absurdity and I truly intend this to be respectful to you but is that what you HEAR or what the CHART says? If I'm not hearing the tonic pedal in the bass in the recording . . . then, I'm going back to school to study plumbing. Whose chart is that anyway? Thanks in advance.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  6. #30

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    I’m curious, what chord and bass note do you think you hear at 1:02?

  7. #31

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    Alternatively you could just ask any jazz musician anywhere what the chords to this tune are, you don’t have to believe me.

    You already admitted (in post no. 20) that you couldn’t hear the G bass under the F7 chord in the tune which started this thread, so it seems your ears are not always reliable.

  8. #32

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    For example, here’s an analysis taken from the recording, by professional trombonist and arranger Ed Byrne, who has played this tune with Herbie Hancock:

    Transcriptions - Dolphin Dance - submitted by EdByrne

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, G,
    I don't want this to descend into absurdity and I truly intend this to be respectful to you but is that what you HEAR or what the CHART says?
    Just to be clear, since I didn’t answer this specific point before, YES, I do hear these changes and pedal notes.

    I am very much a player by ear, the charts are just a useful resource but not the primary one, as far as I am concerned.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’m curious, what chord and bass note do you think you hear at 1:02?
    Hi, G,
    It's a major chord with the chord's root as the pedal. I didn't bother to check it out(key) with my guitar and I don't care what the chart says. I was using my ears and listening to the RECORDING you provided. Can you honestly tell me that the pedal is any other note than the tonic? That's my only point. Perhaps the confusion is that your chart may not be completely representational to his recording. That's what I hear.
    Secondly, for the record, you are a gentleman and a competent musician and I am in no way disparaging you personally . . . only that what I hear is not, for me, what is represented on the "cheat sheet." I don't have any other issue than that in re: the discussion. Thanks for your patience and honesty.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  11. #35

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    Ok, as the bass note is E, presumably you hear it as an E major chord with E in the bass (although that is not really what is going on).

    It’s also worth comparing it with the 2nd chord, you should be able to hear there is a change (downward shift) in the harmonies going on (while still keeping the E in the bass). It isn’t just a continuation of the first chord.

    Anyway I have some ideas about how to explain better what’s going on here. I’m busy now, later I will post some more explanation.
    Last edited by grahambop; 08-22-2021 at 02:32 PM.

  12. #36

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    I thought it might be useful to round this off by letting us hear more clearly the section in Dolphin Dance which we have been discussing (i.e. bars 31 to 34). So I have taken the audio for bars 31-34 from the record, slowed it down a bit, and repeated it a couple of times, so we can hear the chords going by more clearly:



    With a bit of concentrated listening you can hear that the most important notes of the first chord stack from lowest to highest as follows:
    E bass (played by Ron Carter)
    then on the piano, going up: C#, D, F#
    (note the close interval of C# and D which is characteristic of both Herbie Hancock and Bill Evans).

    The second chord is as follows:
    E bass (Ron Carter)
    then on the piano, going up: G, B, C, E
    (again note the close interval of B and C).

    So these chords are Dmaj7 over E bass, followed by Cmaj7 over E bass. Then they just repeat them.

    You can capture the sound of these chords on the guitar as follows:

    Dmaj7/E:
    6th string - open E
    4th string - 11th fret (C#)
    3rd string - 7th fret (D) - bit of a stretch, but do-able.
    2nd string - 7th fret (F#)

    Cmaj7/E:
    6th string - open E
    4th string - 5th fret (G)
    3rd string - 5th fret (C)
    2nd string - open B
    1st string - open E

    These chords over a pedal do sound quite ambiguous, which is no doubt why Herbie Hancock likes them so much. Maybe that is why someone could be deceived into thinking it's all just an E major chord.
    Last edited by grahambop; 08-23-2021 at 09:45 AM.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Ok, as the bass note is E, presumably you hear it as an E major chord with E in the bass (although that is not really what is going on).

    It’s also worth comparing it with the 2nd chord, you should be able to hear there is a change (downward shift) in the harmonies going on (while still keeping the E in the bass). It isn’t just a continuation of the first chord.

    Anyway I have some ideas about how to explain better what’s going on here. I’m busy now, later I will post some more explanation.
    Hi, G,
    Yes. Agreed. That's what I wanted to establish. I'll look at your next example with the new information when I have more time. Thanks for your effort!
    Play live . . . Marinero

  14. #38

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    It would be very interesting to see Herbie Hancock’s own lead sheet for Dolphin Dance, as deposited at the Library of Congress Copyright Office (as I understand it, all compositions have to be deposited there in order to be registered for copyright). But I believe you have to pay a fee and visit the office in person to do this.

    You can search for the entry in the online catalogue, but that’s all.

    What sound is Herbie Hancock hanging on here?-f52b080d-de46-4fbd-ac20-56a67555d6a0-jpeg

  15. #39

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    Here’s Chris Whiteman (who posts regularly on the forum) playing the tune. At 1:11 you can clearly see he is playing a D major bar chord (at the 7th fret) over the open 6th string E pedal, followed by a C major bar chord (at the 5th fret) over the open E pedal. (He sustains the melody note B on the 7th fret over the top of both chords). Sounds just like the record.


  16. #40

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    "These chords over a pedal do sound quite ambiguous, which is no doubt why Herbie Hancock likes them so much." Grahambop

    Hi, G,
    If I were permitted, I would award you JGF's poster of the month award for your comments in re: this discussion. And, I think your above remarks have said it best. Personally, I am always suspicious of "Fake Books" or "cheat sheets" as we often called them in Chicago during my playing days. I suppose it's because I grew up wearing out phonograph needles and records listening to recordings of my favorite musicians and replicating the sounds they played. And, even today, I always rely on my ears, for better or worse, since I seek to replicate the "sound" on the record which was almost always impossible when working strictly from "cheat sheets." And, for the jobbers among us . . . a serious question: how many times do you play a song exactly the same every time you play? Even when I was playing saxophone in horn bands with tight, well-rehearsed horn lines, I would occasionally add a spontaneous nuance (not written) since it seemed right for the moment. And, when I played in quartets, it happened every night. So, I think we have a well-discussed musical example that based on the record and/or the "cheat sheet" highlights the complexity and nuance of this musical form. Thanks, G for your efforts.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Here’s Chris Whiteman (who posts regularly on the forum) playing the tune. At 1:11 you can clearly see he is playing a D major bar chord (at the 7th fret) over the open 6th string E pedal, followed by a C major bar chord (at the 5th fret) over the open E pedal. (He sustains the melody note B on the 7th fret over the top of both chords). Sounds just like the record.

    It sure does. He’s got that Boyd singing!

  18. #42

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    Yes, I've never thought of this as a solo guitar tune, but Chris makes it sound great.

    Especially with all those pedal points.