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Greetings, this is my first post. I come mostly from a rock background. I've dabbled in jazz before and I just starting playing with a group. I have a question about some chord voicings that seem odd to me.
A couple of pieces we're working on (I think Maiden Voyage is an example) have chord notations with a 4th in the bass, like Cm/F. I'm used to seeing 5ths in the bass, 4ths seem odd. What's the story/theory behind this and how would I play it? Would it be best to let the bass handle the F and just play a Cm on the guitar?
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03-05-2010 01:55 PM
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That's modal jazz for yah!
In general, it's best not to get in the way of the bass. (True for rock, too, h?) When comping, you don't need to double the bass line or play in your lowest register. Listen, and see what works. Let me make that clear: you can play the 4th in the chord, but leave the bass line for the bass.Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 03-05-2010 at 04:42 PM.
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that is one of the ways of writing sus chords, and also of writing Cm11 chord (rootless, usually), in the quartal "so what" voicing, as it is known (from the tune of that name, which specifies that voicing).
Cm/F, or more often Cm7/F, is an F9sus, with the Bb of the Cm7 chord replacing the A which would be the 3rd of the F7 (F9) chord--that is the 'suspended fourth'.
instead of (top down):
G
Eb
C
A
F
you have:
G
Eb
C
Bb
F
the 'so what' chord is played on guitar (Cm/F):
3
4
3
3
x
x
or:
x
8
8
8
8
x
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Gotcha. I actually know the 'So What' voicing for Xm11. I didn't know that it was generally referred to that way. Very cool. I also didn't think through it in terms of how the notes stack up. Makes sense though, if it had been written as Cm11 I would've been more inclined to play it as below.
[chord]
||-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
I'll try 'em both out next practice, although I imagine it could be just as well to play a minor 7 chord in most cases.
Thanks for the replies.
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Why wouldn't it be written as Cm11/F? Just not common practice?
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Originally Posted by sdr
Redundant. Plus to avoid having F (the 11th) in the top voice
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Using slash chord names can sometimes be very effective at steering the reader to the intended voicing.
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Funny, I was just reading about this very topic on the airplane, albeit for a jazz piano class I'm taking. Jerry Coker's "Jazz Keyboard for Pianists and Non-Pianists" has a section on the sus9 chord ("The Dominant Seventh Chord with a Suspended Fourth"), followed by a whole chapter on modal playing: The "So What" Voicing; Side-Slipping; Quartal Voicings; Contemporary Chord Symbols (here he talks about slash chords and polychords); Idiomatic Keyboard Vamps (So What, Watermelon Man, Maiden Voyage, Canteloupe Island, All Blues, Killer Joe, Coral Keys, What Was, Mahjong).
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Hey sdr... As bako and randall both eluded to usually slash chords are just a way pianist notate the voicing their playing, and not always the root of actual chord of function. The original chart for "Maiden Voyage" used D7sus4 for 1st chord and F7sus4 etc... Another common use is for composers to imply a moving bass line. Ex. C7sus, C7 , A-7, D7#9b13 , G-7. Notated as Bb/C, C/Bb, A-7, D7#9b13, G-7. Many guitarist write slash chords to imply chords of a sound they don't quite understand or just because it's simple to see. For example, E/C, E7, A-. The chord is Cmaj7#5, from 3rd degree of A molodic min. or E/F, E7, A-, the chord is Fmaj7#9#11 from 6th degree of A harmonic min. Their are not that many so called slash chords or standard inversions that are used that often and you eventually can get use to them. A bigger problem is what the bass player plays at gigs when their not sure what's implied....Reg
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Hey Reg, Thanks, always a new angle to observe. I always thought of that structure as FdimMa7 which I mostly use as Db76#9 (35b7#9) or G13b9 (3b7b913) Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey bako ...how goes... I guess you can call a collection of notes anything you can spell, when function doesn't matter. I gave the example in context to imply function, bVI, V, I, pretty standard for Har. Min.. Yea Dim. is used a lot, where do you get the chord from, Symmetrical Dim. or IV degree of Har. Maj..
The G13b9 is from 5th degree of Har. Maj. or Sym. Dim, but the Db7 13/#9 is tricky, from again Har. Maj. with added note, the #9, which is common practice last 15 years or are you pulling from Octatonic or Symmetrical Dim. again . I'm just looking for info. I don't use a lot of Dim. or Db.Dim in my playing or writing, some times old Duke style Db. Dim. voicings in big band charts for short sections anyway always dig your posts man...Thanks Reg
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For info. When I say Harmonic Maj. I'm implying for example; C,D,E,F,G,Ab,B. Sometimes Bb is included, I think Berklee use to include the Bb which would give you the V7 chord with nat. 13 and both b9and #9.
You can build chords on each degree and get a very different set of chords, modes and functions. If anyone hasn't you should build the chords, for that matter with all scales, Nat. Min., Molodic Min., Harmonic Min., Harmonic Maj. as I just mentioned. A lot of the Triads and 7th chords are the same, but the upper structure chord tones are very different. Reg
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Reg,
I first came upon the dimMa7 just from adding Ma7, b7 and Ma6 when it worked to 3 note structures Maj, Aug, Mab5, Min, Dim, Sus.
Later I found it in Harmonic minor VI, Harmonic major IV and VI and the diminished scale.
I don't remember how he names these scales but Barry Harris teaches using
CMa6 and Bdim combined CDEFGAbAB
Cm6 and Bdim combined CDEbFGAbAB
I like to think of these as bridging the 1 note difference of Major and Harmonic Major/ Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor.
All the harmonies of the 2 scales are present plus whatever new information arises from both Ma6 and m6 in the same scale.
(a potential 15th chord?)
I didn't know about the Berklee idea with the additional b7 to Harmonic Major.
In some ways that would seem to tilt the sound more to C dominant sound resolving to FmMa7.
I might be inclined to view the parent scale as FGAbBbBCDE (melodic minor + a #4th)
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Hey Bako... cool man, you can actually speak in the written language of jazz... sorry your not the norm...I appreciate your knowledge...Yes I think that was the point. The music and ears of the music were use to hearing b9 and #9 in the Dom. chord with altered, from MM. There were both V chords from MM and HM. I think they were looking for away to have a V chord with just #9, with normal function and a Modal interchange way to have access, besides normal V chord with b9 from Har. Maj.. Berklee was about function, actual or implied and resolution, actual or implied.
I dig Barry Harris's approach, somewhat like multiple modal interchange for access to melodic material. Most of the tunes were doing it anyway. I don't remember how he broke down function...I'm sure it works... Thanks for info. Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
If you look though, you already have the b9/#9 in the 3rd mode E.
E F Fx G# (E F G Ab)
Just not the natural 13th. I think the Whole /half diminshed scale is a better choice to get all three extensions.
Going back to your point. I think adding Bb Jst makes it sound like some kind of Bebop scale. Too many chromatics
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Hey John... how goes... Hey the whole point is to have a dom.7th chord with nat.13 with either b9 and #9, and still have normal function through modal interchange. We have MM versions,4th degree Dom.7th with #11, the 5th degree, dom.7th with b13, Har. min. 5th degree, Dom.7th with b13 and b9. MM's 7th degree. used in jazz as dom.7th with b9 and #9, b5 or #11 and b13 or #5. Har. Maj's 5th degree, Dom.7th with b9, by adding the #9,( the b7th of Har. Maj.) you had a method of understanding through function to explain, nat 13 and #9. I know there's a little more involved, but compared to function explained through Dim. analysis and also understanding the music of that period of jazz... I don't know ... If you have more understandings, please help me out. I do read, respect and enjoy your post...Thanks Reg
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Hi Reg, Originally Posted by Reg
Yes, but by adding the 8th note, Bb, It's just Bb, B and C and it tends to sound like a BeBop scale. Once you start talking about 13th's you should consider the 11th (C) as well.
When I think about the Harmonic major scale I think about it exactly for it's b13 sound against a major 7th. The only alteration I might consider for this scale would be to flat the II to Db to give me a flamenco ma7th sound. But of course that would make it a different scale (Whose name I have no idea
)
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Hey John...yea it does sound like what some term bebop maj. with b13. And I thought I was implying a 11th. I don't use the extra note just for that reason, becomes to synthetic of a sound for me. But a lot of younger composers are using not just for example G13b9, but also G13#9 and I think it was an attempt to have analysis in traditional jazz terminology. I don't think the extra note, Bb was implied except in Dominate function. I played a gig with Bob Mintzer a while ago and at dinner we got into this discussion and never really figured it all out,(Berklee's approach) and I'm a graduate from there in late 70's. Anyway thanks for info. Reg
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