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  1. #1

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    In the keys of C and A minor, I only know these:

    Bm7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Am. A natural occurrence as it's diatonic to the key signature.

    Em7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Dm. I'm not even sure about this one as I can't name tunes that use it. C7 seems to take its place, mostly.

    F#m7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Em. I had never seen this one until recently in Yours is my Heart Alone.

    Dm7b5 - Used to get back from Dm to C via the sequence Dm - Dm7b5 - G7 - C. I haven't found any other uses so far.

    Probably these thoughts are related to me increasingly seeing m7b5 chords as "devices" or "means to a purpose" rather than as foundational entities.

    Hit me with your insight

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez View Post
    In the keys of C and A minor, I only know these:

    Bm7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Am. A natural occurrence as it's diatonic to the key signature.

    Em7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Dm. I'm not even sure about this one as I can't name tunes that use it. C7 seems to take its place, mostly.

    F#m7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Em. I had never seen this one until recently in Yours is my Heart Alone.

    Dm7b5 - Used to get back from Dm to C via the sequence Dm - Dm7b5 - G7 - C. I haven't found any other uses so far.

    Probably these thoughts are related to me increasingly seeing m7b5 chords as "devices" or "means to a purpose" rather than as foundational entities.

    Hit me with your insight
    Look at more songs?

  4. #3

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    Here's a list of things that may interest

    Night and Day
    Woody'n'You
    A Foggy Day
    It Was Just One of Those Things
    I Thought About You (original and Real Book Changes)
    Stella by Starlight (original and Real Book changes)

  5. #4

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    Bm7b5 can function as a G7 to resolve in C major as well.

    Tim Lerch showed me the replacement of a C7 chord with an Em7b5 to an F type chord in Danny Boy. A very nice sound.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez View Post

    F#m7b5 - II of a minor cadence to Em. I had never seen this one until recently in Yours is my Heart Alone.
    this is my favourite. often used in a reharm for I IV III VI etc. useful for harmonizing the root. think pennies from heaven.

    i love it over "girl from ipanema":

    Bm7b5 Bbm6 /AdimaddF Abm6 /G7 etc
    Last edited by djg; 05-12-2021 at 06:43 AM.

  7. #6

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    I think you're right about it being a device. There is a related chord very similar that is also a device; 7sus4b5.

    7sus4b5 can sometimes be interpreted as a rootless 13th a major third below. It often is played with quartal chords that can sometimes be interpreted as a rootless 6/9 a major third below. Easier to demonstrate than explain...

    Example in C major using forms that may be played very fast.

    x 8 9 8 11 x - F7sus4b5
    x 7 7 7 8 x - Equartal
    x 5 6 5 8 x - D7sus4b5
    x 4 4 4 5 x - Dbquartal
    x 2 3 2 5 x - B7sus4b5
    x 1 2 2 1 x - C13/Bb

    And you know m7b5 can sometimes be interpreted as a rootless 9th chord a major third below.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker View Post
    Bm7b5 can function as a G7 to resolve in C major as well.

    Tim Lerch showed me the replacement of a C7 chord with an Em7b5 to an F type chord in Danny Boy. A very nice sound.
    I assume an example of the G7 to C could be in the bar 3 of Making Whoopee, which, in the lead sheet we follow go
    / G -G#dim / Amin - A#dim / Bmin7 - Bm7b5 / Cmaj - F7 /
    Always heard that third bar as G - G7


    OP, one Em7b5 - Aalt - Dm tune is Beautiful Love. It open with that.
    Last edited by Average Joe; 05-12-2021 at 09:58 AM.

  9. #8

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    Are you talking about voicings or subs.

    Sounds like your looking for subs... or harmonic devices to go somewhere.

    Beside the standard concepts, of which the thread is going. Mechanical Diatonic subs.... the next step could be to use or expand diatonic through Relative and Parallel relationships... like Cmaj7... B-7b5 E7alt to the Relative Diatonic VI- chord... A-7. Or Cmaj7 ...D-7b5 G7alt to the Diatonic Parallel Imin chord...C-7. YadaYada...

    The next step would be to use Modal versions of the above...simple ex. Cmaj7 ... B-7b5 from Phrygian E7alt to A-7 Dorian... (your opening Modal Sub door)

    Next step would be to start using common practice jazz Chord Patterns. Like simple II-7 V7. One of the common use of Chord Patterns if for... The Chord Pattern to Function as One Chord.
    Ex. D-7 G7 to Cma7 The D-7 G7 ... becomes the Chord Pattern... instead of two functions of.. D-7 as Subdominant to G7 as Dominant to the Cmaj. Tonic. The CP... becomes one or the two functions. If you use Subdominant or D-7 as the Functioning chord of the Chord Pattern... You open up the door to using Subs of D-7 as well as G7 for using D-7. ..........So any Sub of G7 has possibilities of being Sub for D-7

    Your calling and using the G7 as a sub for D-7. So using this standard harmonic application... any -7b5 chord can become part of a Chord Pattern.... which musically helps you use different subs that help expand your collection of versions of -7b5 . With -7b5s.... using the related V7alt chord, (and it's subs), as sub is typical comping or soloing usage.

    You need to understand basic Diatonic and Modal functional practice....

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker View Post
    Bm7b5 can function as a G7 to resolve in C major as well.

    Tim Lerch showed me the replacement of a C7 chord with an Em7b5 to an F type chord in Danny Boy. A very nice sound.
    The 1st is a G9 no root and 2nd a C9 no root.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy View Post
    The 1st is a G9 no root and 2nd a C9 no root.
    yes... and then we would be talking Voicings The Reference is still the root and a voicing being used or called a Sub.

    Most of the time we call these Diatonic Relative Subs.
    Diatonic note collection, from a Scale
    Relative from the borrowing concept. Typically Down a Diatonic 3rd. Relative Minor or Cmaj7 is A-7
    The Diatonic Upper Relative Sub would be E-7.

    or as in the G9 and B-7b5 example.... B-7b5 is the Diatonic Upper Relative Functional Sub.
    ( just for note the Modal Diatonic Relative Sub of G7 would be down a diatonic 3rd or E-7)

    Typically... who cares. But this type of BS theory can actually help one become a better player.... and even help your ears become better, if your a play by ear etc...
    Or if your a plug and play foolish, empty headed idiot like myself... there is no end in sight.

  12. #11

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    if I understand the Q/discussion, off the top of my head:

    in real book types of tunes

    - iiø as part of a iiø V7 to any other chord in the key (eg ii V of ii, ii V of iii, ii V of IV, etc)

    - #ivø to IV7 or #ivø to iv7

    - taking place of a dominant as in Bm7b5 as a sub for G7 is not something I see in a lead sheet or composition too often in terms of real book type of tunes, I think as was said that's more so just playing a rootless voicing. (Just like Fm7b5 is a rootless G7#5b9, but we don't see Fm7b5 to C in a tune often)

    - Often in 'minor cliche' like Am, Am/G, Am/F#, F, E7 type of movement; Am/F#=F#ø. Similarly where we might get a bar of a tonic minor chord we might also have a half bar of the minor chord and half bar of the ø a m3 below, but it's basically just Am to Am/F#.

    in other styles of composition, other things happen. Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, composers like Ravel and Debussy, etc, there are more varied uses.

  13. #12

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    Night in T, Gregory is here.... actually there many. But as you said most lead sheets just give the composer or arrangers basic start... When generally played or performed... is where the actual comping, or soloing happens right. That's where we as jazz players do our things

  14. #13

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    I somehow don't understand the question.

    Most typically a () m7b5 serves as a II chord especially if the dominant is altered.
    Ether going to minor (Black Orpeus) or going to mayor (Night And Day)

    Subs are here:

    Bm7b5 = G79/B (no root) = Dm6 = F6 #11 (no fifth)


    OP, what exactly do you want to know?

  15. #14

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    Our friend, Jack Zucker, once pointed out that a iim7b5 can be thought of as a V7b9sus4 (no root).
    For example:
    Dm7b5 -> D F Ab C
    G7b9 -> D F Ab B (no root).
    The target would most likely be a Cm of some sort.
    I've found this approach to be very useful conceptionally.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban View Post
    I somehow don't understand the question.


    OP, what exactly do you want to know?
    Yeah, I'm sort of here too.

    Where have any of the minor chords gone to?

    C major 7 ( that's a major chord ) d-7 ( that's F6 a major chord ) e-7 ( that's G6 another major ) F major 7, G7 ( major ) a-7 ( that's C6 major chord )
    b-7b5 ( that's G9 a major chord without a root ).

    Guess I should stop practicing minor scales.

  17. #16

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    The question is probable as started... Mechanical -7b5 chord derived from scales. Right. Technically

    Major
    VII-7b5

    Melodic Min
    VI-7b5
    VII-7b5

    Harmonic Min
    II-7b5

    Harmonic Maj
    II-7b5

    Dim.
    1/2 step Whole step

    There are some symmetrical, synthetic and added note variations. But different referent sources with different extensions.

    And then there are voicings... the 9th and 6th chords
    And you can keep pushing etc...

    Then there are actual Functional Subs, which are a different approach for creating Voicings and actual different chords that are subs from Using Chord Patterns. Which is a method of creating single chord references.... from Chord Patterns. Somewhat Like melodic Licks, but with chords. You then basically have a Functional organization for referencing chords from a Chord Pattern.... generally you need comping skills, like using a lead line or melody on top of voicings and the lead line or melody on top keeps the implied Target chord implied... while the actual chords have room to expand, use more chords. Like embellishments of a melody with harmonic Reference being implied by Lead Line. Think of a Pedal or Ostinado but inverted.

    Yea who really cares or understands... But personally it's much more fun approach to playing -7b5 chords and after using enough... just becomes standard. Maybe like going from Bar chords to closed and open voicings... Triads to extensions etc... Using top down voicing as compared to Root up.

  18. #17

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    I'm not sure I really understand what's being asked here. The most common place you will find the half-diminished is in a minor II V I progression, acting as the II chord. So, in that respect its main function resides within a common chord progression and not as a leading, or standalone chord.

  19. #18

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    You can load M7b5 chords in front of dominants or secondary dominants according to taste and depending on what is going on in the tune. You can also use m7b5 as a sub for a dominant chord itself (minus the root). So in the key of C (sort of) you can see processions like F#m7b5 - D#m7b5 - Em7 - Em7b5 - C#m7b5 - Dm7 - Dm7b5 - Bm7b5 - Cmaj7....